Christians believe differently than Mormons. Duh!
If you are trying for a convert, it would be better
if you expended your energy elsewhere. I was presented
both Christianity and Mormonism as a kid. I chose
the Christian path.
I don't mind discussing our differences, or explaining
Christian beliefs with anyone who asks. I am rather
fond of Christianity. I even don't mind if other
share theirs with me. I see it as a sign of friendship
that someone would want to share with me something that
has great meaning in their life.
What is important is that we be respectful of each other.
And you are being really disrespectful to Christians
by calling yourself a Christian when you are not. The
non-virgin birth of Jesus especially makes our skin crawl.
And, please feel free to tell any Christian that claims
to be a Mormon or a Jew or a Hindu or a Muslim that he
is being disrespectful as well.
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
What would you accept as proof?
Science would not be a good choice and religion and science do
not mix. Plus, scientific truths in are always changing: in
science, todays truths are always tomorrows falsehood.
Just out of curiosity, do you think Christian believers
were just presented some beautiful intellectual argument
that changed our minds? 2 + 2 = 4, so god exists?
By the way, here is something for you to ponder. Even
if you do not believe in god, you want believers around
you. This is how John Adams put it:
"We have no government armed with power capable of
contending with human passions unbridled by morality
and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for
a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate
to the government of any other."
So be nice to those believers around you.
Proof doesn't exist. I don;t expect "true believers" to ever realize this.
You might notice that scientific truth changes in response to new
knowledge. "religious truth" is stuck at what people thought thousands
of years ago.
I think no such thing happened. It seems likely that "religious belief"
snuck in with parental love before the person was old enough to know
what was happening. That is "religion" is a disease acquired in childhood.
I want moral people around me. Belief in God is an impediment, which
many manage to overcome enough to be moral.
I wonder how he defined "religion". Religion is a means of getting
people together. As such, it is appropriate there.
Theistic (God believing) religion has nothing to do with morals, but
with slavery. Most believers are moral in SPITE of the belief.
So be nice to those PEOPLE around you, regardless of belief.
99 days until the winter celebration (Thursday December 25, 2014
12:00:00 AM for 1 day).
And so may you be. There's no way of telling either way, is there?
Born-agains and atheists stand on precisely the same ground.
Hey, you want a good read? Try Robert A. Heinlein's "Job: A Comedy of
Justice". It's Heinlein's entertaining take on the Biblical story.
That is exactly my point! A deity may or may not exist. There is no proof either way.
What I do know is that the bible-thumpers use scare tactics. They'll try to scare you into believing you'll go to hell for eternity if you don't believe them.
On the other hand, true scientists propose explanations for observable phenomena.
I've never had a scientist tell me I'll roast in Hell for eternity if I don't believe a proposed hypothesis.
Some do. Most don't. Mine certainly does not. The gentleness of
my church is what attracted me to in the first place -- some
of the sweetest people on the face of this earth.
And I do know some of these bible thumpers you speak of.
They can be annoying at times. Once you get to know them,
they are okay people. They are just being overly exuberant
trying to share something important in their lives with
you. And that is a true act of friendship. They could
learn some tact though.
Here is how to handle them when they start to get annoying.
Just ask them to pray for you. They will be delighted.
And they will usually stop hitting you over the head with
the bible. If they start again, ask them if they remembered
to pray for you.
By the way, my church believes that all truly good people
will go to heaven. We have no idea what the Lord's plan
is for each of us or how he works through us. Here is
a ti (without hitting you over the head with a nerf bible
so it won't hurt to much), it has a lot to do with how you
And the explanations keep changing. That is the nature of science.
Use any caloric to heat your coffee this morning? Science and
religion don't mix.
I just read somewhere that they have a new explanation for volcanoes.
In science, today's truths are always tomorrow's falsehoods.
Fun explanation by the way.
True. But only a real scientist. On the other hand, there are
currently idealogical based scientists (yes, not real scientists)
hawking there own doom and gloom garbage about the oceans
rising, the earth boiling, etc..
When confronted on their flimsy research or when they are
frequently caught cheating, they use religious extremist terms
on you, such as "denier". Much worse than any bible thumper.
Just as religious though, as they accept their premises as
Better to keep religion and science apart. One explains the
observable; the other explains the unobservable. The
two will never meet.
Okay. I see. It gets annoying after a bit. They
are just trying to share something important in
their lives with you. It is tactless friendship.
Religion is suppose to be caught not taught. They
are suppose to attract you to it by the way they
live their lives. (I was originally attracted
to my church by their gentleness and a push from
the Holy Spirit.)
Here is what to do when they get annoying. Just ask
them to pray for you. If that doesn't work, ask
them again if they remembered to pray for you.
I hear you. As a Bible believing Christian, I get
my share of people (including on this list) who
want to try and use rolled up news papers and
endless writing to try and beat me into saying
things I don't believe. Or try to change my
beliefs by rudeness and badgering.
Bull shit. You do not believe what is in
the bible or you would repent your false gods.
Mormonism turns the Bible on its head. And I
have provided you lots of examples of that.
What you believe with your multiple gods that had
to walk the earth to be elevated to god status
is not even remotely Christian. Only the names
This doesn't mean you are not a nice guy or that
you are not going to heaven. It only means that
you do not believe as Christians. And that your
are grievously mistaken on what it means to be
a Christian. It is okay to be a Mormon.
Do not call yourself what you are not. To be
a Christian, you have to REMOTELY believe in
*at least some* of what Christians believe.
A soap opera cast of gods DISQUALIFIES YOU.
Turning the Bible on its head DISQUALIFIES YOU.
Not believing the Nicaean Creed DISQUALIFIES
Christians have died hideous death as martyrs for
refusing to worship polytheistic gods very similar
to your polytheistic gods: human failings, sex with
humans, yada, yada, yada.
An what you believe about the non-virgin birth
is disgusting to Christians.
Next time you think you are a Christian, remember
the screams of the martyrs and what they died for.
And get some self respect.
So, it appears Todd is still on the "Mormons
are not Christian" thing.
Are Mormons Christian?
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unequivocally
affirm themselves to be Christians. They worship God the Eternal Father
in the name of Jesus Christ. When asked what the Latter-day Saints
believe, Joseph Smith put Christ at the center: “The fundamental
principles of our religion is the testimony of the apostles and prophets
concerning Jesus Christ, ‘that he died, was buried, and rose again the
third day, and ascended up into heaven;’ and all other things are only
appendages to these, which pertain to our religion.”1 The modern-day
Quorum of the Twelve Apostles reaffirmed that testimony when they
proclaimed, “Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. … His
way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in
the world to come.”2
In recent decades, however, some have claimed that The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a Christian church. The most oft-used
reasons are the following:
Latter-day Saints do not accept the creeds, confessions, and
formulations of post–New Testament Christianity.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not descend
through the historical line of traditional Christianity. That is,
Latter-day Saints are not Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.
Latter-day Saints do not believe scripture consists of the Holy
Bible alone but have an expanded canon of scripture that includes the
Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
Each of these is examined below.
Latter-day Saints Do Not Accept the Creeds of Post–New Testament
Scholars have long acknowledged that the view of God held by the
earliest Christians changed dramatically over the course of centuries.
Early Christian views of God were more personal, more anthropomorphic,
and less abstract than those that emerged later from the creeds written
over the next several hundred years. The key ideological shift that
began in the second century A.D., after the loss of apostolic authority,
resulted from a conceptual merger of Christian doctrine with Greek
Latter-day Saints believe the melding of early Christian theology with
Greek philosophy was a grave error. Chief among the doctrines lost in
this process was the nature of the Godhead. The true nature of God the
Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was restored through
the Prophet Joseph Smith. As a consequence, Latter-day Saints hold that
God the Father is an embodied being, a belief consistent with the
attributes ascribed to God by many early Christians.4 This Latter-day
Saint belief differs from the post-New Testament creeds.
Whatever the doctrinal differences that exist between the Latter-day
Saints and members of other Christian religions, the roles Latter-day
Saints ascribe to members of the Godhead largely correspond with the
views of others in the Christian world. Latter-day Saints believe that
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving, and they pray to Him in
the name of Jesus Christ. They acknowledge the Father as the ultimate
object of their worship, the Son as Lord and Redeemer, and the Holy
Spirit as the messenger and revealer of the Father and the Son. In
short, Latter-day Saints do not accept the post-New-Testament creeds yet
rely deeply on each member of the Godhead in their daily religious
devotion and worship, as did the early Christians.
Latter-day Saints Believe in a Restored Christianity
Another premise used in arguing that Latter-day Saints are not
Christians is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does
not descend from the traditional line of today’s Christian churches:
Latter-day Saints are not Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.
Latter-day Saints believe that by the ministering of angels to Joseph
Smith priesthood authority to act in God's name was returned or brought
back to earth. This is the “restored,” not a “reformed,” church of Jesus
Christ. The Latter-day Saint belief in a restored Christianity helps
explain why so many Latter-day Saints, from the 1830s to the present,
have converted from other Christian denominations. These converts did
not, and do not, perceive themselves as leaving the Christian fold; they
are simply grateful to learn about and become part of the restored
Church of Jesus Christ, which they believe offers the fulness of the
Lord’s gospel, a more complete and rich Christian church—spiritually,
organizationally, and doctrinally.
Members of creedal churches often mistakenly assume that all Christians
have always agreed and must agree on a historically static, monolithic
collection of beliefs. As many scholars have acknowledged, however,
Christians have vigorously disagreed about virtually every issue of
theology and practice through the centuries, leading to the creation of
a multitude of Christian denominations.5 Although the doctrine of The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differs from that of the
many creedal Christian churches, it is consistent with early
Christianity. One who sincerely loves, worships, and follows Christ
should be free to claim his or her understanding of the doctrine
according to the dictates of his or her conscience without being branded
Latter-day Saints Believe in an Open Canon
A third justification argued to label Latter-day Saints as non-Christian
has to do with their belief in an open scriptural canon. For those
making this argument, to be a Christian means to assent to the principle
of sola scriptura, or the self-sufficiency of the Bible. But to claim
that the Bible is the sole and final word of God—more specifically, the
final written word of God—is to claim more for the Bible than it claims
for itself. Nowhere does the Bible proclaim that all revelations from
God would be gathered into a single volume to be forever closed and that
no further scriptural revelation could be received.6
Moreover, not all Christian churches are certain that Christianity must
be defined by commitment to a closed canon.7 In truth, the argument for
exclusion by closed canon appears to be used selectively to exclude the
Latter-day Saints from being called Christian. No branch of Christianity
limits itself entirely to the biblical text in making doctrinal
decisions and in applying biblical principles. Roman Catholics, for
example, turn to church tradition and the magisterium (meaning teachers,
including popes and councils) for answers. Protestants, particularly
evangelicals, turn to linguists and scripture scholars for their
answers, as well as to post–New Testament church councils and creeds.
For many Christians, these councils and creeds are every bit as
canonical as the Bible itself. To establish doctrine and to understand
the biblical text, Latter-day Saints turn to living prophets and to
additional books of scripture—the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and
Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.
Together with the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon supports an
unequivocal testimony of Jesus Christ. One passage says that the Book of
Mormon “shall establish the truth” of the Bible “and shall make known to
all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of
the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must
come unto him, or they cannot be saved.”8 In its more than six thousand
verses, the Book of Mormon refers to Jesus Christ almost four thousand
times and by over one hundred different names: “Jehovah,” “Immanuel,”
“Holy Messiah,” “Lamb of God,” “Redeemer of Israel,” and so on.9 The
Book of Mormon is indeed “Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” as its
title page proclaims.
Converts across the world continue to join The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints in part because of its doctrinal and spiritual
distinctiveness. That distinctiveness flows from the knowledge restored
to this earth, together with the power of the Holy Ghost present in the
Church because of restored priesthood authority, keys, ordinances, and
the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The fruits of the restored
gospel are evident in the lives of its faithful members.
While members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have no
desire to compromise the distinctiveness of the restored Church of Jesus
Christ, they wish to work together with other Christians—and people of
all faiths—to recognize and remedy many of the moral and family issues
faced by society. The Christian conversation is richer for what the
Latter-day Saints bring to the table. There is no good reason for
Christian faiths to ostracize each other when there has never been more
urgent need for unity in proclaiming the divinity and teachings of Jesus
For the first four hundred year of Christian existence, the Romans
hunted us down and murdered us in the most horrific of manners.
The Romans often tortured us to death because we refused to
worship their polytheistic gods: gods with humans failing, just
The Soviets murders us by the hundreds of millions for refusing
to renounce our faith.
We have shed volumes of blood beyond imagination for the right
to call ourselves "Christian". You really can not comprehend
just how vile it is to have you come along with your false gods,
gods with human failings, sex with gods, non-virgin birth,
etc. and call yourself Christian. You are not a Christian.
You do not believe what Christians believe. Please stop calling
the riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped
That part I can figure out. As I am suppose to be respectful
of other's religions, I have gone through great pains to
to make sure I quotes sources from Mormon sites, such as
lds.org. I have taken great pains not to state non-Mormon's
opinions as Mormon doctrine.
To this point, I thought I had succeeded in that. Apparently
not. Please forgive me.
Did you honestly think I was threatening to hit you with a
newspaper or anything else? Did you notice where we were when
I cracked that joke? We were both in heaven. It is a Christian
belief that all truly good people will get to heaven. I was
including you in those good people, not threating to hit you.
By the way, it won't hurt my feeling one bit if you think I have
misstated something and you correct me.
If I had not made it abundantly apparent (making you heaven's
repairman in humor), I sincerely appreciate your help with
the refrigerator. My wife kept asking "what did Stormin'
say?" You apparently have a fan club.
Dog, newspaper, indignant. Oh well, there will be time
for more humor. The main point was where we both were
(heaven) when the smacking was to happen. It was suppose
to be a back handed compliment to you. You get use
to having to explain your jokes and apparently, your
Please tell me you didn't take me seriously about the
Elvis suit either?
I'd been meaning to ask about the Elvis suit. Is
that the required attire in "your" Heaven? Not sure
LDS has mentioned that. Should I leave it in my will
to be burried in one, or should I figure to find a
second hand shop and buy one there? Maybe Elvis and
Marilyn Monroe have been resurrected, and no longer
need the suits?
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