Re: Historical question: single outlet

...snip...

I appreciate that you are sticking through this with me. I would like to ask a favor.

There is a lot going on here and we seem to be answering bits and pieces at a time. Do me a favor and read through *all* of my comments below before responding to each one. I think you'll get a better picture of how I am interpreting the words in the code. It's the words in the code (such as the words "point", utilization equipment, outlet and outlet box) that I am using for all of my reasoning.

I'm going to quote various definitions to support my opinions. If you feel that my reasoning is flawed, please use the words in the definition to show me the error of my ways.

Thanks!

I agree that the NEC defines where that occurs. That is why I keep going back to this definition of an outlet:

"A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment."

My overarching premise: I interpret the word "point" to mean "a particular spot, place, or position". IOW, I consider the "point.. at which current is taken" to be the physical spot where the conductors of the electrical system are connected to the conductors of the utilization equipment. Typically that is going to be a box of some sort.

I feel that the NEC definitions that I include throughout this post support that premise.

OK... here we go.

The NEC defines Utilization Equipment as follows:

"Equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes."

I don't see how how a fan or luminaire can be both the outlet and the utilization equipment at the same time. How can it be the *point* (the outlet) where current is taken to supply equipment as well as the equipment itself?

I see that point as the box that it is attached to because the box contains the wires that carry the current that is taken to supply the utilization equipment, e.g. the fan.

Granted, the outlet could be built into or onto the fan in the form of a junction box, but I still consider that box to be the outlet and the fan (its motor, etc.) to be the utilization equipment.

Because, IMO, a box with nothing attached is a not "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." A box with nothing attached to it could be a pull box or a junction box as defined in 314.28.

Now, hang a luminaire off of that box (horizontally or vertically) and the box becomes "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." IOW, an outlet. Specifically, a Lighting Outlet as defined in Article 100.

That's a good question. I believe the answer is "no" but not in the manner I previously thought.

I should not have said that a receptacle is an outlet, because the NEC does not appear to define it as such. Don't blame me, I didn't write the definitions. ;-)

I will admit that "receptacles" are confusing. While they do provide a "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment", Article 100 defines them as a "device" that is installed *at* the outlet. IOW, they can't *be* an outlet if they are installed *at* the outlet. However, they also do not fit the definition of utilization equipment.

(A "device" is defined as a unit of an electrical system, other than a conductor, that carries or controls electric energy as its principal function.)

Further, Article 100 defines the box that contains the receptacle as a Receptacle Outlet. Specifically, "An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed." Again, IMO, the receptacle can't *be* the outlet if an outlet is the place where receptacles are installed.

I really want to call a receptacle an outlet because it is that "point" where current is taken but the NEC defines it as a "device" at the same time that it defines the box as a Receptacle Outlet. I gotta admit, that's confusing.

From Article 100:

Lighting Outlet: "An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire."

Therefore, IMO it does not appear that the NEC considers a lampholder or luminaire to be an outlet. The thing that it is connected to (e.g. a box) is the outlet.

IMO A luminaire is a piece of utilization equipment, but I could be convinced that certain lampholders could be an outlet because it is the point where the lamp (i.e. utilization equipment) takes the current. However, it does not appear that the NEC feels that way.

I really want to agree, but here's my logic as to why I no longer feel that way. (It's similar to why I feel that a receptacle is not an outlet)

- A pull-chain fixture holds a lamp, making it a lampholder

- In the NEC definition of a Luminaire it states that "a lampholder itself is not a luminaire". I doubt that they are speaking only of the lamp holder within a luminaire so they must also be talking about pull chain fixtures and the like.

- But! As I noted earlier, a Lighting Outlet is "An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire."

So how can the lampholder *be* an outlet if it's *connected* to an outlet?

"314.27 Outlet Boxes Paragraph A" reads:

"(A) Boxes at Luminaire or Lampholder Outlet. Outlet boxes or fittings designed for the support of luminaires and lampholders, and installed as required by 314.23, shall be permitted to support a luminaire or lampholder. "

IOW the outlet box supports the luminaire.

I read that to mean the box is the outlet and the luminaire or lampholder is the utilization equipment.

Then there's "314.24(A) Outlet Boxes Without Enclosed Devices or Utilization Equipment.

Outlet boxes that do not enclose devices or utilization equipment shall have a minimum depth of 12.7 mm (1.2 in.)."

I'm picturing a 1/2" pancake box, screwed to a joist to hang a ceiling fan. I read

...snip...

I agree that a box with nothing attached is not an outlet, but as noted earlier, the NEC defines a Lighting Outlet as "An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire."

Do you not agree that the pancake box (or any box) that the Luminaire is hanging from fits the definition of a Lighting Outlet?

A receptacle or smoke alarm is a "particular spot" in the system.

I have always understood "outlet" to be the device that taps off the power. IMHO writing a definition that makes it clear that a box is not an outlet is excessively difficult and unnecessary.

I see no problem with an outlet being utilization equipment. Not all outlets are utilization equipment (receptacles).

What is unique between the 2 boxes is what is attached to one of them.

"314.27-A-1 Vertical Surface Outlets Boxes used at luminaires or lamp holder outlets in or on a vertical surface ...." IMHO this says "luminaires or lamp holders" are the "outlets" the boxes are associated with. (Which you deleted.)

IMHO you want definitions that are excessively complicated making the NEC even harder to read.

I wouldn't call a PPC (or keyless) a luminaire.

I read it as the box supports the luminaire or lampholder (eg. PPC). Luminaire or lampholder is the outlet (that is why it is an "outlet box"). Utilization equipment is not mentioned, but luminaire or lampholder are that.

Same as above.

"If you feel that my reasoning is flawed, please use the words in the definition to show me the error of my ways."

What was snipped is: "314.27-A-1 Vertical Surface Outlets Boxes used at luminaires or lamp holder outlets in or on a vertical surface ...." IMHO this says "luminaires or lamp holders" are the "outlets" the boxes are associated with.

This appears to be a smoking gun.

(Corrected - "lamp holders" is "lamp holder".)

The box is not unique (electrically). What is unique at an "outlet" is what taps off power.

I didn't ask for a clearer/more complicated definition. I simply said that the definition is confusing, at least to me. I'm looking for an explanation of the existing definition that removes that confusion, not another explanation.

But read on, because I think I may have found something that clears all that up.

I agree 100%. I was going to bring that up earlier, but I assumed we were on the same page with that.

I agree that the luminaire or lampholder are utilization equipment.

I was not sure where to stick this, so this seems like as good a place as any.

The following was found at:

"Where a branch circuit is hard-wired to utilization equipment, that connection is by definition an outlet. "

This sort of goes all the back to where I emphasized the word "point". While that statement is not from the NEC, wouldn't you agree that it implies that neither the box nor the equipment is the outlet?

I've been saying that the box is the outlet, you have been saying that the equipment (luminaire, fan, etc.) is the outlet, that sentence says that wiring connection itself is the outlet. That would work whether there is a box or not. Where there is an "outlet box", it *contains* the outlet but is not the outlet itself.

I can live with that. The "connection" certainly fits the definition of "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment."

The outlet is exact point *on the wiring system*, not a box or a device or a piece of utilization equipment.

Does that work for you?

Addressed above. IMO It's not a what, it's a where. That "where" is the exact point on the wires where the connection is made, such as inside the wire nuts.

Is that agreeable?

IDK what your problem is, that fits exactly.

The latter case is an outlet. A box just used to connect wires is not.

Right, the usual arguing over pedantic nonsense.

Good grief. We're talking about the NEC. They are very careful as to how they word every single sentence which is why it gets revised every few years: to clarify previous wording and update it for new technology.

If anything deserves a detailed discussion of every single word, it's the NEC. Interpret it wrong, fail an inspection. Interpret it wrong, create an unsafe condition.

There's an entire industry related to interpreting the NEC and if you think discussing the wording is "pedantic nonsense", stay out of the discussion.

So...I stepped out to cook. What do I plug my TV into?

You two ought to get a room.

A wire is a wire. A Junction Box is a junction box. A raceway is a raceway. A receptacle is a receptacle. and an outlet is anything consuming[*] power from a branch circuit.

Careless language. Ask him if a box is an outlet.

"For conductors to be a 'branch circuit,' they must originate at the final overcurrent device and end at the outlet(s)." The branch ckt ends at a dishwasher.

You are getting more ridiculous.

"314.27-A-1 Vertical Surface Outlets Boxes used at luminaires or lamp holder outlets in or on a vertical surface ...."

"Luminaires or lamp holders" are "outlets". Similarly, ceiling fans, smoke alarms, receptacles, ... are "outlets".

Wire nuts are outlets?

"314.27-A-1 Vertical Surface Outlets Boxes used at luminaires or lamp holder outlets in or on a vertical surface ...."

"Luminaires or lamp holders" are "outlets". Similarly, ceiling fans, smoke alarms, receptacles, ... are "outlets".

Please answer this direct question:

NEC definition of outlet from Article 100:

"A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment"

If the fans, etc, are the outlets, where is the utilization equipment?

You didn’t answer my question.

Using your premise, where is the utilization equipment mentioned in the definition of an outlet?

"314.27-A-1 Vertical Surface Outlets Boxes used at luminaires or lamp holder outlets in or on a vertical surface ...."

"Luminaires or lamp holders" are "outlets". Similarly, ceiling fans, smoke alarms, receptacles, ... are "outlets".

The outlet is generally the utilization equipment. The definition works for receptacles. It is inconsistent with 314.27-A-1 and common sense. You may submit a code change proposal, which I am confident will be appropriately considered.

Still can't acknowledge 314.27-A-1?

Some devices, like electric space heaters, have the branch circuit directly connected to the heater - the wiring goes from the panel to the heater. Where is the "outlet"? Maybe at the panel?

Dishwashers should have a disconnect. It is remote from the dishwasher. Where is the "outlet"?

What is that you are asking me acknowledge? I don't see how that defines the luminaire as an outlet. Please explain how it does.

Look at 314.27-A-2

"At every outlet used exclusively for lighting, the box shall be designed or installed so that a luminaire of lampholder may be attached."

I read that to mean that the luminaire gets attached to the outlet, not that the luminaire itself is the outlet. If the luminaire was the outlet, why don't they make it simpler and just say:

"At every outlet used exclusively for lighting, the box shall be designed or installed so that the outlet may be attached."

Please note - I am not saying that the box is the outlet. I moved away from that on 7/12 when I altered my stance to be that the *connection* is the outlet. My main assertion is that the utilization equipment (luminaire, dishwasher, etc.) is not the outlet. The connection point is.

Note the final sentence in this excerpt from:

"There are multiple types of outlets. See the definitions of lighting outlet and receptacle outlet. Both of these terms are tied to the definition of the general term “outlet,” which is defined as a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. Where a branch circuit is hard-wired to utilization equipment, that connection is by definition an outlet. "

"That *connection* is by definition the outlet." Not "That utilization equipment is by definition the outlet." That is why, in my post on 7/12, I changed my stance from the box being the outlet to the connection itself being the outlet. Whether that connection is in a box or in the appliance, the connection is the outlet, not the dishwasher, the luminaire, etc. That part of my stance has never changed.

The connection at equipment is the outlet because that is the *point* on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

I don't see why anyone has a problem with that statement. Nothing fits the NEC definition of an outlet better.

I'm assuming that you are considering the GFCI to be the disconnect. If not, I don't see where the NEC uses the word "disconnect" when addressing dishwashers. Not doubting you, but it's not included in 2017 210.8(D) Kitchen Dishwasher Branch Circuit or 2020 210.8(D) where the code was changed to include all appliances defined in 422.5(A). If it's covered somewhere else, please let me know.

But more importantly, look at the exact wording of 2020 210.8(D):

Specific Appliances. Unless GFCI protection is provided in accordance with 422.5(B)(3) through (B)(5), the *outlets supplying the appliances* specified in 422.5(A) shall have GFCI protection in accordance with

There are 2 points to be made here:

I've asked this numerous times and have not seen a direct response:

How can the utilization equipment (the appliance) be the outlet if the NEC talks about the outlet that *supplies* said appliance? The dishwasher isn't supplying itself.

(B)(5) Factory installed within the appliance

..."the outlets supplying the appliances specified in 422.5(A)shall have GFCI protection in accordance with 422.5(B)(1) or (B)(2)."

(B)(2) "A device or outlet within the supply circuit"

Once again we have a example of where the code distinguishes an outlet from an appliance.

I have tried throughout this discussion to include definitions and sections of the code where the terms "outlet" and "utilization equipment" (both in general and specific types) indicate to me that they are 2 different things. The outlet supplies the current, the equipment takes that current. Those are the words that the NEC uses. I don't see how they can be interpreted to mean that the utilization equipment and the outlet are the same thing.

"314.27-A-1 Vertical Surface Outlets Boxes used at luminaires or lamp holder outlets in or on a vertical surface ...." IMHO says "luminaires or lamp holder" are "outlets".

314.27 is boxes used at outlets I read it as outlet boxes, the subject of the article, with luminaire or lampholder attached

Because what is being attached is specifically a "luminaire of lampholder".

Better than "box". IMHO "outlet" is a poor word for a connection.

Expanding slightly (B)(2) [The GFCI shall be] "A device or outlet within the supply circuit" Works for [The GFCI shall be] "A device ..." Doesn't work for [The GFCI shall be] "A ... outlet [connection]...."

Thanks

But it still doesn't lead to "the appliance is the outlet".

To be clearer, 422.5(B), the code doesn't say "The GFCI shall be a...", it says "The GFCI shall be ... located in one or more of the following locations".

(2) A ... outlet within the supply circuit

I'm not married to the following argument, but I think it has merit.

Article 100 Definitions:.

Receptacle Outlet: An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.

Receptacle. A contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug,

Put a GFCI [Receptacle] in a [Receptible Outlet]. The GFCI becomes the connection point where current is supplied to the equipment., or essentially the "outlet".

The part that bothers me the most with that argument is that the definition of a Receptacle Outlet takes us back to the box being an outlet, albeit a specific type of outlet. But the box is not a connection, the GFCI is, making it the outlet - the exact point where current is supplied to the equipment. Definitely confusing.

Time to move on, unless you have have something else to add. It's been fun. ;-)

(Apologies if this is a dupe.)

This is a reply only to 210.8 and 422.5.

You have a problem with "outlet"

The only place where "outlet" could have come from is (2011 NEC) "422.51 Vending machines" older machines "shall be connected to a GFCI-protected outlet."

I don't see any meaning for a vending machine except "outlet" is a "receptacle". ("New" vending machines have GFCI protection in plugs or cords - they are cord and plug connected.)

- that is used to protect downstream.)

--------------------------------------------------------- "210.8-D Specific Appliances. "Unless GFCI protection is provided in accordance with 422.5(B)(3) through (B)(5) [in the plug or cord for a plug and cord connected appliance or built into the appliance],

"The outlets supplying the appliances" are again receptacles or GFCI receptacles.

--------------- I don't know why "outlet" is used 3 places above where the connection must be through a "receptacle".

=============================== For your amusement: The definition of "outlet" was the same in the 1968 NEC, oldest one I have.

=============================== Moving on sounds good.