I live in a very old coop apartment building with six units, all more or less identical, all heated by a single boiler through seven radiators in each apartment.
The system is controlled by a single thermostat and inevitably, there are differences in temperature within the apartments. No doubt plugging leaks would help resolve this problem, but someone has suggested that apartments which are too warm should turn their radiators "half off."
My impression is that vented steam radiators are like light switches -- you either turn them on or off.
You can replace the vent with a thermostatic vent that only opens when it sense an ambient temperature below its set point. [Of course if the main boiler isn't running at that point, it still can't provide any heat.] That ought to eliminate any overheating issues.
Growing up as a kid in the 70's, the old duplex my parents lived in had radiators. At the base of the radiator was a round handled control that you could turn clockwise, or counterclockwise a few times to control the amount of steam going into the radiator unit.
It was in line with the steam pipe going into the radiator, and the radiator would have this little silver thingy that would let out the excess steam i think. It screwed into the radiator on the end opposite the control mentioned above.
So if he has those type of controls, yeah, I think turning them "half off" might work.
Our six-unit coop building is a little complicated.
First, a single thermostat controls the entire building, so that theoretically the heat should be the same in all units at all times.
But in fact there is a great discrepancy. When it's 70 in one unit, it might be 75 in the one directly above it.
I'm sure that closing windows and plugging leaks would be a great help, and I'm working on a thorough "winterizing" of the building.
But beyond that, even if the heating system was delivering a consistent temperature to all units, there is disagreement over what the optimum setting should be. For instance, we have two elderly women who are in their apartments 24 hours a day, and they would want the temperature set at 75 all the time. Most of the others work and don't especially want to shell out big bucks to keep the whole building hot all day for the benefit of two tenants.
And that's what gets me back to my original question: Can we turn the radiator valves half off in order to reduce the heat in one apartment while maintaining it in another? Or, as I asked earlier, are these vents like a light switch -- they're either on or off, and there's no in-between?
The vents should allow some balancing of the system. Problem is, no matter how well you balance the system, some occupant is not going to be happy. An individual cannot do a night setback, for instacne. The key to full joy amongst then tenants will come from indnividual thermostats and a zone for each. That can be done if each apartment is piped as a separate zone, but not if a continuous loop.
Thanks Ed -- I'm pretty sure our radiators are in a continuous loop.
Frankly, only attrition will solve our problem. Among our tenants are two elderly ladies who are essentially two invalids trying to take care of one another -- a pathetic situation, but not made better by the crankiness of one of them.
This gets a bit far afield, but we have something of a legal question at hand. The ladies insist that the coop bylaws, which specify that the coop "shall provide heat," means that they are entitled to at least 73 degrees by day and at least 68 by night. And they have made cryptic remarks indicating they may go to court to enforce that "obligation."
My position is that since no specific heat level is mentioned, the coop is obligated to provide a "reasonable" level of heat, and what better definition of "reasonable" than the Department of Energy guidelines which recommend setting thermostats at 68 by day and 65 by night. It's up to the coop, by vote of the directors, so determine how many degrees, if any, we choose to go above the DOE recommendations.
Just out of curiosity, how would you come down on that issue, if you were a judge dediding the point?
I just balanced 14 units with different rated numbers of Gorton valves from a 15f differential inbetween apts to 3f, you need to redo your venting to get even heat. Your vents are old and probably of different types so heat is not balanced for the units. Forget the thermostat idea, your issue is radiator venting
Not to belabor the matter, but I have suggested that the old bags get a space heater. The cranky one flatly refused on the ground that it would be a fire hazard.
Never mind that she is a chain smoker who pollutes the entire building in which no one else smokes. Needless to say, smoking causes home fires a hundred times more than modern space heaters with tip-over controls or, as you suggest, oil-filled heaters.
Anyhow, that gives you an idea of what I'm up against.
PS: Just to prove that I'm not picking on helpless old women, I'm only a few years younger than they are.
Some years ago one of our workers was going to do the same because Monday mornings were so cold in the shop. Turns out, there is nothing saying we must heat our work space at all. Check to see if there is a local regulation. I doubt that it is 73 or even above 68. I'd tell the ladies to invest in a space heater or long undies.
Agreed: where we live, landlords are required to provide 68F temperatures (or is it 65F? I should double check), which would be excessively warm for me.
Ray, As an experienced individual in this sort of thing there are all kind of fixes you can do but in reality, you WONT make them all happy. All you can do is make it the best for most (but not all) of them. First off, have you system checked out and serviced by an experienced steam heating tech. In particular, make sure all the traps are working properly. Next, the individual steam vents on the radiators need to work properly. The adjustable type work best to help regulate each radiator (but they wont perform a miracle). As far as the actual on/off knob at each radiator. Those are either off or on. Usually only open 1/4 turn. Hot water valves are different turning a full turn or more and having a weep hole in them to prevent total "off" and a possible freezing condition. You will usually find the steam valves "frozen" or corroded in position. Any attempt at turning it will usually result in a leak or a snapped off valve. It can be done but has to be very carefully done. Other than that, find out what local codes may require and deal with it that way. The old lady that wont take the electric heater can freeze if she wants to be that stubborn. Bubba
Thanks Bub -- That's the best advice I've gotten so far.
The whole issue of turning the valves "half off" arose when the cranky old lady said that if other tenants didn't like their apartments as warm as hers, they could turn their radiators "half-off."
It was that suggestion which led me to post in the first place.
Our building is old and most of the valve knobs are painted shut. We'd be asking for big trouble if we started trying to turn those things on and off.
Gee, what problems,, painted shut valves, an unbalanced system, probably unmaintained overall, you are just pissing money down the drain, and you wont even do the basics of maintenance, you deserve to overpay 25% for gas with that attitude and laziness.
My friend, you're entitled to your opinion but your're not your facts.
And the fact is, we have a state-of-the-art oil-fired boiler which was installed two years ago, and it is maintained and serviced scrupulously.
Our problem is the radiator system, and we made a conscious choice to try to make the 85-year-old system work as well as we could rather than abandon it and install an entirely new distribution system -- at a cost of more than $120,000.
In fact, despite the age of the system, we have managed to get our oil use only a little above the national average.
Why do you bother to post when the only thing you have to add to the discussion is a vulgar insult based on incorrect assumptions? All of the other 20 or so responses were polite and genuinely helpful.
Ray understand what I am saying, you really dont. There is a simple, cheap way to balance your building and save alot on your utilities. You stated, you have differences in apt temperatures, you stated that your impression was that vented Steam radiators are either on or off. This is so far from the truth, the air vents on the radiators can be changed to allow at least a 7 degree change in the heat an apt recieves, cold apts can be given more heat and hot ones less. Also old bad vents can leak, not completely close, allowing your boiler to loose alot of water, adding cold water as it does can seriously lower boiler efficency and help crud up the boiler by needing alot of cold makup water. My "assumptions" are bases upon your statement your building has uneven heat and are correct. If you are worried about paint ruining the valve use paint remover to soften it before you open it. Your building was designed to have all radiators open and most likely had even heat for years. There are many brands of vents, some chinese ones are junk. Gorton has a range of vent options ratings, I use all of theirs, 4.5.6.C, D. Ds go in a cold apt radiator, 4s go in a hot apt, 5 would be an average. By using their vents I cut a buildings Ng consumption 25-30% by not having to crank the temp to heat a cold apt. You can, once you understand the procedure get the whole building to within 1-3 degrees, and if you want to give extra heat to the elderly you can dial that in too. All the 20 other people were polite, but nobody addressed the real issue, your uneven heating. And it is air venting, and not with a thermostatic valves. I guess after 3 attempts of trying to explain the basics to you it gets agravating. Your 85 year old radiators are not the issue, venting is. To balance it right is time consuming, its something a building owner should do unless he wants to pay a tech thousands, it takes many visits to each apt at the same time to write down the temp and vent changed and to what type, then a follow up a day later to see the results, and then do it again and again until its even. Id suggest a Raytech or similar IR thermometer to make accurate and easy temp mesurements.
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