Prospects of selling a house next door to a "reformed" spree killer?

[HeyBub]

I see you're posting moved through the servers at the University of Maryland - hardly a repository of "code of the west" knowledge. Nevertheless, assuming you are trying to increase your store of wild west lore, let me disabuse you of what you hope to be the case:

Here's one example:

"Texas Penal Code 9.42 DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY"

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, moveable property: (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime, or (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery..., and (3) he reasonably believes that (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means, or (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor to... risk of death or serious bodily injury."

In the Joe Horn case, the two goblins had just committed a burglary and were fleeing, thereby fulfilling (2)(B) above. Joe is in his 60's and the two squints were young, strapping males. Even if Joe could catch them in a foot race, and even if they were unarmed (the weren't - they had pry-bars and other burglar tools) the chance of death or serious bodily injury is a reasonable expectation, thereby meeting the requirements of (3)(B).

So, Joe simply sicced old double-barreled Betsy on their asses.

I'm sure Joe didn't have a Texas Penal Code checklist on hand so he could mark off the nuanced requirements of the law.

He simply saw his duty and he did it.

[thedarkonelives]

Just asking as the result of a debate elsewhere.

Btw, since when do prisoners in penitentiaries have access to the internet?

[thedarkonelives]

No, this was a different school shooting. The killers at Columbine both killed themselves as their final act. Kinkel apparently had also planned to kill himself but was subdued by classmates before he finished his rampage.

[thedarkonelives]

Unless the jury prefers to believe the word of four guys who all testify that the molester attacked the father and they just helped.

I suspect the child molester didn't want to risk going back to jail.

However, if they'd simply pressed charges they likely could have sent Chester the Molester back to jail, instead of moving elsewhere to continue offending against someone else's child.

[HeyBub]

Many do.

Who do you think enters the information you supply when applying for a credit card?

[hallerb]

seriously in new jersey prisoners answer the phone when you call looking for info to vacation in the state.

no doubt the prisoners would love to be anywhere else

[krw]

Nonsense. It *is* public information.

You certainly do live in a strange world. We had a lengthy disclosure form to fill out that went through the entire house. I looked at it as a good thing. As long as I answered the questions honestly there was nothing to come back after me for, though that wouldn't stop an ambulance chaser.

My house had a building permit and CO as a two bedroom [*] house, even though there were clearly three. Before I could even put it on the market I had to get the permit and CO "upgraded" to three bedrooms. It cost me $3500, for nothing but paper and five minutes of the town clerk's time.

[*] who in their right mind would build (or allow to be built) a two bedroom 2-1/2 bath house?

[cshenk]

wrote

Interesting! I wouldnt mind that. I thought the rules here as explained to me by the realtors sounded 'wierd'.

Wince! Yes, it would be.

[Norminn]

I wonder how many convicted killers would qualify for a mortgage? Folks get hysterical about sex-offenders living x blocks from a school or park, but forget that most sex abuse is by family members. Knowing one bad guy lives at a certain address doesn't make me feel any less safe than knowing 10 others are vagrants going from city to city. Heck, in Florida there have been a rash of school teachers having sex with their students.

If an ex-con does have the money to even rent a decent home, they are likely to be on parole and any misbehavior gets them back where they came from. What, me worry? Cops scare me more than bad guys where I live; they wear disguises :o)

[cshenk]

"krw" wrote

I never said it wasn't. What your area (state) requires may match another or may not be the same. I advised to look up the laws for the area involved. Normally pretty easy to find.

Just wierd to me, but got same info from several realtors. I do not live in a 'must disclose' state.

I'm not sure what the costs would have been in 1995 to bring it up to code, only an estimate in 2007 that was very open ended as in 'we expect to find more'. Of what I can recall besides the roof having to go up was the slab had to be raised to level to the rest of the house (it's a 1.5 inch or so drop). I thought that one very odd indeed. They seemed quite happy to make it with no windows but spec'd out that if it had a window it had to be a certain size... (The room has 2 doors so the window apparently isnt required but i already have one bedroom with no windows and 2 doors).

Grin, does sound odd!

[Rod Speed]

krw wrote

disclosing the information.

Your sig is supposed to be at the bottom, with a line with just -- on a line by itself in front of it.

The current location of an ex prisoner isnt.

But which didnt include anything about the neighbours.

So it was in fact completely useless.

Your problem.

2-1/2 bath house?

Those who arent stupid enough to spend more on more house when they dont need that.

[HeyBub]

Well, no. If you ever drive past a prison, you'll probably see "outside trustys" mowing the grass, etc. Virtually all of the outside trustys are murderers, crime of passion murderers. You see, they are basically rule-followers; tell 'em to go outside and sweep the sidewalks, be back at

4:30, and they'll be back. Theirs was a crime of unique opportunity, they didn't plan it. They just got swept up in the heat of the moment.

A robber or burglar or contract killer, on the other hand, has no respect for the rules or law. Put them outside the wall and they'll bolt. Every time.

So, with a crime-of-passion criminal, if you can put him in a situation where the same circumstances to not repeat, he'll be fine.

[krw]

You did when you said, "Laws may not *allow* the Realtor to disclose...". It is perfectly legal to "disclose" public information.

It is *not* uncommon. I've had to do it twice now, in different states. The last one was *very* strict. Agents get sued for non- disclosure all the time, even though there was no way they *could* have known. ...even if the homeowner obviously did, the agent gets sued (deep pockets).

I didn't grin at the $3500 - for nothing.

[richard]

All true, except for a couple of things. Joe Horn failed to comply with a directive from the police department. "Do not go outside." The 911 person said this how many times? 3? And Joe still acted as a vigilante?

Also look at (3)(a). There were officers in the area. This law is designed to protect citizens from prosecution who live in very rural areas where enforcement may not be so readily available.

(3)(b) also includes the words "other than deadly".

(2) also uses the words "to prevent" and "during the night time". IOW, BEFORE the act is actually committed. Or at most, in the process.

The law does not give a person the right to "Shoot and kill". It gives the citizen authority to hold and detain.

Joe Horn shot two people in the back. By doing so, he violated this law. The only reason he is not being prosecuted is because the news media has touted him as some kind of wild west vigilante hero.

Had Joe Horn been black, he'd be in jail.

[Rod Speed]

Pity the current location of spree killers who have served their time isnt.

Only in the stupid US system.

Your problem.

[Rod Speed]

richard wrote

The cops dont get to issue any such 'directive'

That aint even a cop.

The law allows that.

But not on site.

How odd that it doesnt say anything like that.

There's an OR between them. Its there for a reason.

Wrong. (2)B covers it completely.

Wrong. Thats precisely what it does. The words deadly force are included for a reason.

It also give the citizen the authority to use DEADLY FORCE and says the explicitly.

No he didnt.

Nope, because he didnt breach that law.

Irrelevant, he didnt breach that law.

[HeyBub]

The 911 operators are not cops and have no authority to issue commands. They can make "suggestions," but they are not on the scene.

(3)(A) does not apply. The crime had already been completed. Further, the law does not say "... applies only in counties of less than three thousand people..."

Yes. But that's not a choice, it's a condition. If the use of "other than deadly" force would subject the citizen to the risk of serious bodily injury, then the citizen is justified in skipping the "other than deadly" business.

Right. But (2) does not apply. The offense had already been committed, now we're dealing with the "fleeing" phase.

Oh yes it does. Any citizen in my state has the right to use deadly force - with the possibility of death resulting from that use - under the circumstances outlined above. I'm telling you this not only as a matter of law, but from my time as a cop, as a matter of public policy.

That too.

Of course this law obtains in my jurisdiction. Your local laws, and community attitudes, may be different. The laws are certainly different in the UK, for example.

My view is that Joe Horn did not violate the law, but we'll let the system decide the technical details. But irrespective of whether Joe violated the law, there's no doubt he is a hero.

Maybe in Delaware, but not in Texas. Here's a recent case where a Houston black man shot a burglar and got an award:

The facts are slightly different - the scrot didn't die - but deadly force WAS used. Now you may say: "But it was self-defense! The misunderstood citizen threw a knife at the shooter!" Well, yes. But the knife obviously missed. Now the deprived, downtrodden, alleged thief is UNARMED and Miles (the shooter) SHOT A DEFENSELESS MAN ANYWAY!" Here, we give testimonial dinners and free passes to Six Flags for such actions.

Still searching for a rationale, you may pooh-pooh the situation by saying Miles was a politician and got special treatment. Well, not so. Miles was recently arrested for pulling his gun where he shouldn't.

[Larry]

In some jurisdictions they do. I can cite statutes for you, but it would probably make your pea-sized brain hurt.

[Rod Speed]

Some gutless f****it parasite desperately cowering behind Larry desperately attempted to bullshit its way out of its predicament and fooled absolutely no one at all, as always.

No surprise that the best it could ever manage is lying parasite.

[Rod Speed]

Larry wrote

not go outside."

Not in that situation they dont, liar.