pool pump

Three months ago, we resurfaced the pool with Diamond Brite, replaced the pool filter, and installed a new pool pump. Ever since, the Pool Valet (caretaker) system has bubbled. (It did not bubble prior to the resurfacing project.) The pool contractor says, "Not my problem." The pool service company says, "Not my fault." I took the filter out to have a look at it. The filter contained enough sand and gravel to fill two 2 ounce bathroom cups. Plus, I could see loose gravel in the bottom of the filter tank. When I took the lid off of the pump, the first thing I noticed was the fact that the filter basket was mis-shapen from having partially melted. The little basket contained, as you can imagine, more gravel. With the basket out, I could reach into the hole and scoop up gravel. What can I do to A) rid the system of the gravel and B) get the pump to stop sucking air? PS-I don't care who's at fault. I just want the pool to properly function and stop sucking my wallet.

Reply to
havin_aball
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Nader Chalfoun and Christopher Trumble had an interesting Tucson cool tower story in the Spring 2005 U Oregon "Connector" architecture newsletter.

It's nice to avoid the energy of a swamp cooler blower. Can we also avoid the large structure (sacrificing architectural drama) and use less water, based on weather conditions, with constant comfort and better controls?

How about testing an alternative? Evaporate water inside a house and also run a small exhaust fan as needed to remove water vapor from the house. The most efficient corner for evaporative cooling in the ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort zone is at 80 F and w = 0.012, approximately.

We (not me, with recent flooding in PA :-) might turn on a small indoor swamp cooler with a thermostat when the indoor temp rises to 80 F and turn on an exhaust fan with a humidistat when the indoor RH rises to

54% (w = 0.012 at 80 F.)

With enough green plants in a house, the cooler might seldom turn on. With enough air leaks, the exhaust fan might seldom turn on.

Or run a soaker hose with pressurized water from a solenoid valve (which might come from a dead washing machine) over a floorslab in an existing house or under a floorslab with a vapor barrier under the hose in a new house. The slab's thermal mass might store coolth for more efficient cooling with cooler night air below the comfort temp near the floor.

During the day, a slow ceiling fan with a room temp thermostat and an occupancy sensor could provide efficient cooling as needed. The fan could provide comfort cooling and raise the acceptable RH all the way to 100% at

81 F with v = 0.5 m/s, according to ASHRAE-55's BASIC program, altho that might cause mold, on a continuous basis. The slab could also lower the mean radiant temp. A low-e ceiling and walls could radiate less to the slab when nobody's home, conserving stored coolth.

NREL says Tucson has an average humidity ratio wo = 0.0054 in June, with a 67.9/99.6 F daily min/max. An 80 F house with a 400 Btu/h-F thermal conductance and 4K Btu/h of internal gain might need (99.6-80)400+4K = 8240 Btu/h of cooling at 3 PM.

Evaporating P lb/h of water makes 1000P Btu/h, and cooling C cfm from 99.6 to 80 F to make up for required exhaust air takes about (99.6-80)C Btu/h, and 1000P = 8240+(99.6-80)C with 0.075 lb/ft^3 air and P = 60C0.075(wi-0.0054) and wi = 0.0120 makes P = 0.0297C and 29.7C = 8240 + 19.6C, so C = 816 cfm and P = 24.2 lb/h of water, with a net cooling of 8240/24.2 = 340 Btu/lb.

How many pounds of water per hour would a cool tower need to achieve the same 80 F at 54% RH inside this house?

Ps = e^(17.863-9621/(460+80)) = 1.047 "Hg at 80 F and 100% RH, so A ft^2 of 80 F damp floorslab in 80 F air at 54% RH might evaporate 0.1APs(1-0.54) = 0.048A lb/h of water, (mis)using an ASHRAE swimming pool formula, ie

502 ft^2 of slab might evaporate 24.2 lb/h.

At 81 F and 100% RH indoors, 1000P = (99.6-81)400+(99.6-81)C and wi = 0.0233 and P = 0.0808C, so 80.8C = 7440 + 18.6C, so C = 120 cfm and P = 9.7 lb/h with 7440/9.7 = 770 Btu/lb of net cooling. This could work even in August, when conventional swamp cooling wouldn't, with wo = 0.0117 and Tdp = 61 F. It might precool a slab faster and more efficiently than simple AC.

An 80 F slab under 67.9 F air with wo = 0.0054 and Pa = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.257 "Hg might evaporate 0.1A(Ps-Pa) = 0.0789A lb/h and lose (80-67.9)1.5A = 18.2A Btu/h of sensible heat, for a total of 97.1A Btu/h. With enough air, a 1000 ft^2 slab might lose 24hx8240Btu/h = 198K Btu in 198K/97100 = 2 hours on a June night, with 198K/158 = 1255 Btu/lb of net cooling.

Nick

Reply to
nicksanspam

Sounds like the pool pump is indeed sucking air; I would guess from a leaking gasket or o-ring.

Just clean out all the gravel you can by hand, backflush / clean the filter assembly, and replace any o-rings you come across on the low-side of the pool pump.

Reply to
Travis Jordan

Forgot to ask - do you have the optional "Debris Containment System" for the Pool Valet? If so, check to be sure that the air leak isn't originating there.

Do you see bubbles in the clear tank at the pool pump when it is running?

Reply to
Travis Jordan

Who replaced the pump and filter? If you did then your on the hook. If one of the contractors did then I think they are on the hook. Just how did you take the filter out? Paper filter? Get a new basket, of the proper manufacture. The right basket saves the pump from stray trash.

Sucking air is pretty easy to find start looking at all of the joints where the new equipment was installed. Saran wrap or similar wrapped over the joints TIGHTLY will help ya find the leaks.

Oh the "the hole in the ground where all the money goes"

Reply to
SQLit

Thx for the reply. Sorry for the dumb question, but what do you mean 'backflush'? How do I backflush?

Reply to
havin_aball

A- Do not have debris containment system for pool valet. I called the mfg of pool valet and they indicated to me, based on my description of the problem, that the problem was not part of the pool valet system. B- I can see water movement, but not bubbles per se, in the window of the pump.

Reply to
havin_aball

Thanks for the reply and suggestion. We replaced the filter cartridge with a new one 6 weeks post-diamond brite. The maintenance company installed the pump (the old one was nearly 14 years old!) about the same time. Please explain how to use Saran Wrap to detect leaks. Sorry for asking a totally bone-head question, but I'm new to the whole swimming pool ownership (and related expensive maintenance) experience.

Reply to
havin_aball

you can not finger out how to wrap a piece of plastic around the joint?

Replacing the filter 6 weeks ago and you do not know how to back flush? No wonder the pool is dirty. There is a valve on top that you turn when the motor is off. When I had my pool resurfaced I was back flushing 2-3 times a day for the first week. Proably do not have a pressure guage either.

Time to go to the pool store and learn or pay someone to do it for ya.

Reply to
SQLit

Certain kinds of filters provide a valve that allows you to flush out the filter by running water backwards through it and then out the drain. Other filters (such as the cartridge type) don't have this ability and you have to remove the cartridges in order to clean them. Check your owner's manual or the web site for the filter manufacturer.

Reply to
Travis Jordan

Sounds like it might be a leaky gasket where the pool inlet assembly (the 'window') meets the pool pump body.

Reply to
Travis Jordan

Thanks for this input and put down. Guess I needed that. I thought I could hire someone to take care of the pool as I am on the road a lot. Boy, was I wrong! I'll go outside NOW and wrap plastic around the joints and see if that helps. When the pool was resurfaced, I was out of the country for 3 weeks on a job, so missed the opportunity to learn about the pool from the contractor and relied on the service provider to take care of everything for me. My filter is a paper cartridge. The 'silo' has a pressure gauge on the lid. I'll try to go to a pool supply store tomorrow and see if they can talk me through some of the basics.

Reply to
havin_aball

Thx for the tip. I'll research the Hayward C-750 on the mfg website.

Reply to
havin_aball

The C-750 is a large (75 sq ft) cartridge filter that I think is now out of production. You may be able to find a similar filter assembly on the Haywardnet.com web site. You definitely need to remove and clean the cartridge if you pool service company hasn't been doing this....in which case your system pressure must be off the charts by now.

Reply to
Travis Jordan

Backflush cleans the sand filter (by pumping water from the pool through the filter and out to waste.) Do this once a week, just until the water runs clear and clean.

Reply to
Don Phillipson

You should have no leaks at all. On advice by good old Sam at the pool store I have no leaks since (a) replacing friction fittings with screw fittings, (b) using Teflon plumber's tape on each male screw part (6 turns over the threads plus three more at the end of the threads.) This is how components of an above-ground pool are assembled every May (disassembled in October or November.)

Reply to
Don Phillipson

wrote in message news:dk0lnc$ snipped-for-privacy@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...

-----------scientific drival ----------------------------------------

The cooling tower idea has been around Arizona since the padre's came from Mexico and California. The UofA touted them in the mid 70's when the electric rates started jumping here in the desert. Most of the installations do not last more than 4 years. The salts left behind from the evaporating water are a real issue to take care of. City of Phoenix built two towers near Civic Plaza. They worked 2 summers and were then disconnected from water supplies. They were very pleasant to walk under during the June and July heat. When the Monsoons arrive they are worthless. The weather men all now give dew point readings all year long. Coolers will not work over a 40 F dew point. Water prices here in the desert are jumping more than 8% a year. It is hard to install something that is good for 60-90 days a year. I have had swamp coolers in the past. Being a person that measures everything I started keeping track of the costs. When my water bill exceeded my power bill there was a reckoning. I did not like the greasy feeling when drying off after a shower. I came to the realization that for a few dollars more I could have a/c all of the time. I only have one friend that has a cooler now, he has it on his garage. Does not use the water much cause of the rust on his tools. Great idea and it does work. They are a bitch to take care of over time. Just ask anyone who has worked with one. All the math in the world will not make it "feel right".

Reply to
SQLit

[About architectural students designing and testing cool towers.]

Drivel restored for the literati:

Evaporating P lb/h of water makes 1000P Btu/h, and cooling C cfm from 99.6 to 80 F to make up for required exhaust air takes about (99.6-80)C Btu/h, and

1000P = 8240+(99.6-80)C with 0.075 lb/ft^3 air and P = 60C0.075(wi-0.0054) and wi = 0.0120 makes P = 0.0297C and 29.7C = 8240 + 19.6C, so C = 816 cfm and P = 24.2 lb/h of water, with a net cooling of 8240/24.2 = 340 Btu/lb.

How many pounds of water per hour would a cool tower need to achieve the same 80 F at 54% RH inside this house?

Ps = e^(17.863-9621/(460+80)) = 1.047 "Hg at 80 F and 100% RH, so A ft^2 of 80 F damp floorslab in 80 F air at 54% RH might evaporate 0.1APs(1-0.54) = 0.048A lb/h of water (mis)using an ASHRAE swimming pool formula, ie

502 ft^2 of slab might evaporate 24.2 lb/h.

At 81 F and 100% RH indoors, 1000P = (99.6-81)400+(99.6-81)C and wi = 0.0233 and P = 0.0808C, so 80.8C = 7440 + 18.6C, so C = 120 cfm and P = 9.7 lb/h with 7440/9.7 = 770 Btu/lb of net cooling. This could work even in August, when conventional swamp cooling wouldn't, with wo = 0.0117 and Tdp = 61 F. It might be a fast way to cool a slab.

An 80 F slab under 67.9 F air with wo = 0.0054 and Pa = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.257 "Hg might evaporate 0.1A(Ps-Pa) = 0.0789A lb/h and lose (80-67.9)1.5A = 18.2A Btu/h of sensible heat, for a total of 97.1A Btu/h. With enough air, a 1000 ft^2 slab might lose 24hx8240Btu/h = 198K Btu in 198K/97100 = 2 hours on a June night, with 198K/158 = 1255 Btu/lb of net cooling.

But that's irrelevant, when considering _alternatives_ to cool towers, no?

That's disproved in the drivel above :-)

This indoor scheme is cheap, and some variations can work all year.

But this scheme is not a swamp cooler.

They can work together. A rational person who understood drivel might use this scheme when water costs less than running an AC, depending on weather and water and electrical costs. For instance, if water costs 0.2 cents/gallon (one Phoenix site mentions $1.50/1000 gallons), he might use AC in the last case if the water cooling cost ($0.002/(8x1255) = $2x10^-7/Btu) were less than the cost of an AC with a COP of 3 with an electrical cost of $C/kWh ($C/(3x3412) = $Cx10^-4/Btu), ie if C < $0.002, ie if electricity costs less than 0.2 cents per kWh, ie "use AC if the cost/kWh is less than the cost/gal." But electricity typically costs 10 cents/kWh, ie 50 times more.

Nick

Reply to
nicksanspam

0.1APs(1-0.54)
29.921/(0.62198/wo+1)

(80-67.9)1.5A

You obviously have never kept one of these running year in year out. You obviously do not have allergies that are exacerbated by high humidity.

Have you done the calculations for all that humidity you have pumped into the home. Then try to remove it with the a/c? Sure you can save a buck or two maybe 90 days a year with swamp cooling. Considering all of the work it takes to keep the unit running at your peak efficiency. I will change a $6.00 filter every 30 days instead.

I understood the drivel, just decided to be brief. The numbers have little to do with reality in the desert. Where is the constant for dust storms?

Put one in your house and let me know how it is doing 5 years from now. Until you provide me with the 5 year data I will stick to my experience with them. New homes here are not even offered with a evap option. Even if you ask for it they say wait until the house closes and then install it. Most of the flexible duct work installed today would have serious problems delivering the air to all the rooms.

Reply to
SQLit

Obviously not.

What ductwork?

Nick

Reply to
nicksanspam

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