I installed my wall oven. I ended up having to install the junction box in
the cabinet below. It works fine.
A couple of questions. I installed the oven on 2x4 runners layed flat on th
e plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where
the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run t
he oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is t
here any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that?
The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches fr
om the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is
used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confuse
d becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is use
d, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runners
.
Anyhow, the other oven was rated at 6 kw I think. The breaker I think is 30
or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smaller
breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
I appreciate it!
On Monday, April 8, 2013 8:44:07 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
n the cabinet below. It works fine.
the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wher
e the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run
the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is
there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that
? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches
from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp
is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confu
sed becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is u
sed, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runne
rs.
30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smalle
r breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
One more thing. I have been reading about arc fault breakers and how they c
an keep a house fire from starting. (especially in a kitchen). If I need to
get a lower rated breaker for the oven, would an arc fault breaker be a go
od idea? Also, my wiring to the ovens in my house tie the white neutral wir
e to ground. I assume I could still use an arc fault breaker?
On Apr 8, 9:55 am, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
in the cabinet below. It works fine.
n the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wh
ere the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to r
un the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8.
Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like th
at? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inche
s from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clam
p is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little con
fused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is
used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the run
ners.
s 30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smal
ler breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
can keep a house fire from starting. (especially in a kitchen). If I need
to get a lower rated breaker for the oven, would an arc fault breaker be a
good idea? Also, my wiring to the ovens in my house tie the white neutral w
ire to ground. I assume I could still use an arc fault breaker?
AFCI is not required and I would not shell out the bucks
for one for an oven. With an oven you have a direct wire
run and I would think a lot less chance of some kind of
arc fault happening, compared to daisy chained outlets
for example, with all kinds of connection points.
On 4/8/2013 7:55 AM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
Does the nameplate give a max branch circuit rating? How about the
installation instructions? Is a cooktop on the same circuit?
Without further information I would use a 20A breaker.
[For ovens like this you may be able to use a larger breaker - 210.19-A-3]
It is a 220V circuit. The common AFCIs are for 120V circuits. If 220V
AFCIs are available they are likely to be quite expensive.
The NEC does not require kitchen receptacles be AFCI protected. (Most of
them are GFCI protected.) Originally bedroom circuits had to be AFCI
protected - probably the most likely place to start a fire where an AFCI
would help.
If the oven supply circuit does not have a neutral (and was properly
installed originally) the oven ground can be connected to the supply
neutral.
If the supply includes a ground the oven ground must be connected to the
supply ground.
Connecting the oven ground to the supply neutral can result in AFCI
trips (in particular if the oven contacts a 'ground' some other way).
On Apr 8, 9:44 am, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
n the cabinet below. It works fine.
the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wher
e the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run
the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is
there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that
?
No
The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3
inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght
angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I
was a little confused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or
if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not
cut a hole but used the runners.
Sounds perfectly normal. The only exception is that the
install directions say the box is supposed to be min 5"
below and you apparently have it at 3". But I don't see
any problem with it and would be OK with it like that in
my house.
30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smalle
r breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
3600/240 = 15 amps
Max current should be 80% of the breaker. 20 * .8 .
So a 20A breaker is the minimum. But provided you have
the appropriate wire size for the existing breaker, I would
not change it, a future oven might take more power.
When I replaced my ovens one thing I noticed was the
new ones take longer to heat up. I guess you've discovered
why. For some reason, the new ones have smaller elements.
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com;3043228 Wrote:
> I installed the oven on 2x4 runners layed flat on the plywood top that
> separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where the junction box
> is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire
> through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any
> problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that?
I don't see a problem with that. In my building, the armored cable to
my stoves comes out of a hole about that size in the floor. Those
cables used to be hard wired to the terminal blocks of my old stoves,
but when I replaced the stoves with ones with self cleaning ovens, I
installed range cords on each stove.
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com;3043228 Wrote:
>
> inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght
> angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was
> a little confused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a
> solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a
> hole but used the runners..
I expect the reason they suggested the large rectangular hole is because
most people would not have hard wired their oven to the junction box
like you did. Most would have used a range cord and receptacle instead;
like this:
[image:
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/appliances/range1/cord/elrgpc18a.jpg
]
You can buy both the range cord and the receptacle at any hardware
store. You wire the receptacle into the junction box and the range cord
to the terminal block of the oven, and then just plug the oven in to the
receptacle very much like plugging in a TV set; only a bigger plug and a
bigger receptacle. That way, taking the oven out (for repairs or
whatever) is much easier.
The plug on a range cord is considerably larger than the plug on a 120
VAC appliance, and so you do need a larger opening for the plug to pass
through, but even 4 inches square should be ample. I expect they
suggested a 6 by 10 inch opening so that the entire receptacle can go
through the hole if necessary, but I don't see where you'd ever need to
do that in your case.
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com;3043228 Wrote:
>
That sounds reasonable. A heating element is a resistor, so you can
say:
Watts = Volts X Amps.
If you have 240 volts and 40 amp breakers, that gives you 9600 watts,
which provides all the power the oven needs with a 50% safety factor
which is reasonable. Even if you only had 30 amp breakers, you'd still
have 7200 watts available to the stove and it's convenience outlets, if
any.
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com;3043228 Wrote:
>
> the breaker with a smaller breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
I expect they're 40 amp breakers meant for an apartment size stove.
There are different sizes of electric stoves. A standard residential
stove is 30 inches wide and will be rated at 50 amps. An apartment size
stove will be 24 inches wide and rated at 40 amps. But, because the NEC
doesn't have a prong and receptacle configuration for 240 volts and 40
amps, you use the same 240 Volt 50 amp rated cord and receptacle for
both a residential size stove and an apartment size stove. So, if you
decide to install a range cord on your wall oven, it'll be rated for 50
amps too. If you live in a condo that used to be an apartment block, I
expect that's why they provided 50 amp wiring to the stove location, but
only 40 amp breakers in the panel. They did that in my building, too.
I personally don't see any problem going down to 30 amp breakers cuz
they would provide you with approximately 7200 watts of power, which is
way more than you need, even with convenience outlets on the wall oven
where you could be plugging in power pigs like a toaster, electric
kettle or coffee maker or even a microwave oven.
> ground.
You should really change that if you can. Apparantly, because of a
shortage of copper during WWII, they allowed that in the US electrical
code at the time, but you really should connect the white wire of your
cable to the middle screw of the terminal block in the oven and connect
the armored cable or the aluminum strip or any ground wire inside the
cable to the chassis of the wall oven to make a separate ground
connection. Or, at least that's my understanding of how it would be
done. I'll let any electricians in here chime in on that one. I've
heard that they make kits of some sort that you can buy at applaince
parts stores in the US to change that wiring to a separate neutral and
ground wire connections, so you may want to ask about that at your local
appliance parts store.
I don't think that was ever done in Canada, and I've never seen that on
any of the electric stoves I've ever had to work on.
I've never heard of an arc fault breaker, so that question is above my
pay grade.
x
s
;
Most people would follow the install instructions which say
the oven is to be direct wired in. It has a metal armored cable
and you connect that to a junction box. That is what the OP
did and he did it correctly.
g]
rgp...]
d
I would bet it's also a violation of the UL listing and code
compliance
of the oven when you remove the supplied direct connection that
is the manufacturers install method and replace it with a plug/cord.
e
What exactly is an apartment size stove and why would you
expect that to have anything to do with this guy's wall oven?
e
C
All of which is irrelevant. The install manual for his OVEN
says it's to be direct wired, which he did.
to
The typical oven has directions for connecting it as either a 4 wire,
which is what is done in new circuits that are run today , or as a 3
wire
if that is the older existing wiring, where code permits it. No kit
required.
The manufacturer doesn't have to supply a range cord so he didn't. But,
if it were my wall oven, I'd use a range cord. That way, when I find
out that I need the arms of an octopus to do any repairs on that thing
entirely from the front, I have the option of taking it out of the wall
and doing the repair in relative comfort. That's the advantage of
having a range cord.
' snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:
For the second time, the manufacturer's recommended installation method
is designed to save the manufacturer $5 on a range cord. That's why
it's recommended by the manufacturer. It saves him 5 bucks!!!
Besides, if his oven only draws 3600 watts (or 15 amps) why would it be
a code violation to use a range cord and receptacle rated at 50 amps to
connect it? It might be overkill, but it's certainly safe.
' snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:
An apartment size stove is one of these:
[image:
http://www.northlandappliance.ca/images/w/500/c/1/r/9a1f31b9f46e.JPG
]
It's 24 inches wide instead of the normal 30 inches, and so it has three
6" surface elements and one 8" surface element instead of the more
common two 6" and two 8" elements. And, it has a smaller oven and
smaller bake and broil heating elements. And, normally the fuses or
breakers for it will be 40 amp instead of 50 amp.
The guy didn't know if his breakers were 30 amp or 40 amp, so I told him
40 amp breakers were standard for apartment size stoves, and so there
was a good chance they'd be 40 amp.
' snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:
Yeah, too bad he didn't ask about that in here first.
The good thing is that he can still change it if he wants.
In the U.S., no manufacturer supplies a range cord, possibly because we
use two types so they wouldn't know which to furnish. Wall ovens in the
U.S. are not designed to accept range cords. In the U.S. it is a Nec
violation to alter the design of an approved electrical device. The code
requires the oven to be installed as per manufacturers instructions.
In the U.S. Ranges must now be cord and plug attached, but there is no
such provision for wall ovens. They are provided with a whip, which
connects to the feeder inside a junction box.
If the OP has a 4 wire feeder, he should connect the oven accordingly ,
If he only has a 3 wire feeder, he should leave the ground and neutral
connected together as is shows in the instructions.
The cut a rectangular hole if you don't use runners is very likely for
cooling.
Most people wire a wall oven per the manufacturers drawing just like
the OP did.
Ding, ding, ding..... I think we have a winner here. In reading the
question about cutting the hole, I was thinking of it in context of
making the connection for the electrical box. But after reading what
you posted I went back and looked at the original install instructions
that the OP provided:
"If a solid bottom is used instead of runners, a 6" x 10"
rectangle must be cut out of the bottom (See Fig. 1)
for optimum performance and proper air circulation."
So, he installed it with runners and the hole is not required.
On Monday, April 8, 2013 8:44:07 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
n the cabinet below. It works fine.
the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wher
e the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run
the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is
there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that
? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches
from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp
is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confu
sed becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is u
sed, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runne
rs.
30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smalle
r breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
I thought my elements looked much smaller. Also, when I turned my old oven
on I could hear a fan blowing. My new oven has no such fan.
I have # 6 wire to my current oven. I was not sure if it was a safety hazar
d or violation to have a larger breaker than the oven required in case ther
e was a short in the oven or something.
The reason I coul not get it lower two more inches is that it would have ca
use interference with a sliding drawer.
So, no need to cut the hole?
I appreciate everyone's help on here!
On Apr 8, 2:03 pm, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
in the cabinet below. It works fine.
n the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wh
ere the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to r
un the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8.
Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like th
at? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inche
s from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clam
p is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little con
fused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is
used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the run
ners.
s 30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smal
ler breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
n on I could hear a fan blowing. My new oven has no such fan.
ard or violation to have a larger breaker than the oven required in case th
ere was a short in the oven or something.
Unless the installation manual or a plate on the eqpt says you
have to use a certain amperage breaker or they spec a max, I believe
you are OK with the larger breaker, since the conductors
are rated for it.
cause interference with a sliding drawer.
It's hooked up. The oven is installed and working, no?
What purpose would some hole serve? Time to get a
six pack and relax.
On Monday, April 8, 2013 8:44:07 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
n the cabinet below. It works fine.
the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wher
e the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run
the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is
there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that
? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches
from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp
is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confu
sed becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is u
sed, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runne
rs.
30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smalle
r breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
Ok, second guessing myself. My supply wire to the oven had a white, red, bl
ack and ground wire. The oven had these as well. I tied the white neutral t
o ground, as this looked like the way it was done with the oven I took out.
Is this acceptable?
On Apr 9, 12:06 pm, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
in the cabinet below. It works fine.
n the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wh
ere the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to r
un the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8.
Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like th
at? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inche
s from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clam
p is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little con
fused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is
used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the run
ners.
s 30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smal
ler breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
black and ground wire. The oven had these as well. I tied the white neutral
to ground, as this looked like the way it was done with the oven I took ou
t.
Technically, no. Why didn't you follow the install instructions?
They show it for connection to either:
4 wire, ie with ground which is code today for new circuits
and apparently what you have. 4 wires from oven get
connected to 4 wires of cable.
3 wire, which is the older method. IF you had that, then
in most cases, you would be allowed to change the oven
and re-connect the new one, tying the neutral and ground
together, instead of pulling a new 4 wire cable.
On 4/9/2013 12:06 PM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where the
junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven
wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any
problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that? The junction
box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the
2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven
cable to junction box connection. I was a little confused becasue the directions
say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he
bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runners.
or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smaller
breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
and ground wire. The oven had these as well. I tied the white neutral to ground,
as this looked like the way it was done with the oven I took out.
It is not. The ground and neutrals must be separated then connected
accordingly. The only time you can leave the ground connected to the
neutral is if your supply feeder is only 3 wire
plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where the
junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven
wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any
problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that? The junction
box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the
2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven
cable to junction box connection. I was a little confused becasue the directions
say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he
bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runners.
or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smaller
breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
black and ground wire. The oven had these as well. I tied the white neutral to
ground, as this looked like the way it was done with the oven I took out.
On 4/9/2013 8:13 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:
the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where the
junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven
wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any
problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that? The junction
box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the
2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven
cable to junction box connection. I was a little confused becasue the directions
say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he
bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runners.
or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smaller
breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
black and ground wire. The oven had these as well. I tied the white neutral to
ground, as this looked like the way it was done with the oven I took out.
Sorry, I misunderstood your statement. These provisions are per Nec
rules. There are some appliances that do require a four wire circuit
only, and make no allowance for an existing three wire feeder.
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