OT: update on flu vaccine research

Hi All,

Well now, we have heard this stuff before, but maybe this time it will pan out.

This from a press release, repeated all over the place:

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Scientists said Monday they had discovered immune cells that can fight all known flu viruses in what was hailed as an "extraordinary breakthrough" that could lead to a universal, one-shot vaccine against the killer disease.

Due to its mutating strains, vaccine formulas must be regularly updated and * ONLY OFFER LIMITED PROTECTION CURRENTLY *.

Lets hope.

Oh ya, and I could not help but notice that the marketing weasels changing their tune on the effectiveness of the current vaccine. "ONLY OFFER LIMITED PROTECTION CURRENTLY" Hmmmmmmm. YA THINK!

-T

Reply to
T
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Show us where the "marketing weasels" at the vaccine manufacturers or any credible health authority claimed that the existing flu vaccine offered anything other than limited protection currently. You create one strawman after another. Everywhere I look, every source acknowledges that the current vaccine effectiveness varies from year to year, from maybe 40% to 60%.

Reply to
trader_4

Don't forget the ~130 million on government subsidized medical through their employers. Get a tax break for it and it is welfare.

Reply to
T

Why don't you suggest that to your hero, Trump? Eliminate the ability of corporations to deduct the cost of health insurance they provide their employees, so many of them will drop it and leave more working people uninsured.

Reply to
trader_4

True. And every year they accidentally, oops, sorry, my bad, "what is the difference?", forgot to state that their warm from their ear, 40 to 65 % guesstimate is against the virus in the shot, not the virus in the wild, which is typically zero.

Think about it. The researchers have to make an educated guess almost a year in advance what will jump from pigs to humans and be an actual issue. The odds of them getting it right are pretty slim. After the strain that becomes an issue shows up, it is too late to make up a shot (takes too much time).

Also keep in mind that humans a sick 100% of the time. We are always fighting something. We are just not symptomatic. The human body is an extremely hostile place for these critters.

If you really think the flu shot is effective, just breath the air around someone who has taken it. You get the virus with out the thimerosal (mercury). What is life without a little mercury mainlined into your body?

Only if you believe the marketing weasels. Follow the money.

Reply to
T

Employer-paid health insurance became popular, whenever, because it was tax-deductable to the employer but not taxable to the employee. So it was like giving a tax-free raise to the employees, who probably settled for less since it was tax-free, benefitting the employer too.

But people don't get sick or not based on whether they have a job or not, so it's a silly system.

Reply to
micky

Except the rest of us have to pay their taxes for them. The bet way to make a subsidy permanent is to give it to the middle class

It started as a way to get around teh wage and price controls of the second world war. And since prices always rise to meet subsidizes, compared with medical procedures, such as lasik, that are not covered buy insurance, we now pay four times what the service is worth.

My wife went into the ER several moths ago with appendicitis. I told them in no uncertain terms she was chemically sensitive. They said okay. She was in recovery in less than two hours.

Had this been a socialist system, including medicare for all (which sucks by the way), she would have had to wait over 24 hours in the ER, had her appendix burst, and the reactions to the chemicals they would have given her would have killer her 100%. No fooling. Socialized medicine sucks. It is only good on paper.

Not that I want to, but I listen to the Limey news on Classic FM. I get to heard all the scandals in their health system. It really sucks. They especially treat their elderly like s**te (Limey for shit).

Our medical system is very good, except for the four times price tag. We need to inject some free market into it. We can start by not subsidizing employer paid insurance. They can buy their own insurance damn it!

We could pop the medical bubble instantly by outlaying medical' insurance, but that would be very cruel to too many people.

Next get rid of state in barriers to insurance. In the state (NV), the Swamp bribes the government to get mandatory provisions added to my insurance policy. Gee Wiz, I have to buy pregnancy insurance and mental health coverage too! (I would not need the mental health coverage if they'd stop raisinfg my taxes!)

Reply to
T

Watched a fascinating documentary on the researchers years ago, I believe it was a NOVA presentation. I also have customers in the alternative medical community that are very vocal about it.

40 to 60 % is the virus in the shot. That is the predicted rate that will get sick from it. And if you don't get sick, you don't develop immunity to the shot.

I love documentaries.

Not much it was just trivia. Have you heard cancer researchers say we all have cancer, it is just that our bodies kick their asses without us even knowing about it.

I am surprised the good comrade allopath doctor has not chimed in on all of this.

Here is a fun read on the subject:

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Just how do you think the flu is communicated? It is through the air and though touch. That is why we tell medical folks to wash their &*%^ing hands before touching us and no touching the computer after washing your hands either.

So you think mercury is not toxic? One of our local high schools broke a thermometer and they had to evacuate the school whilst hazmat cleaned it up. Maybe you know something they don't? Could have saved us a lot of time and money.

Have fun:

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Uhhhh. Where did you get the idea I was against these vaccines. They work. And those that make them deserve to be rewarded for their efforts.

I am not antivax. I am anti bad vax. Please don't go off on a tangent and attack me for something I haven't said.

Speaking of really bad vaccines, the swine flu vaccination almost killed my wife. A lot of folks got Guillain-Barré syndrome from it. Hmmm ...

I kinda on enjoy your conversation, but whatever floats your boat.

Reply to
T

His ear to ear dog shit.

Reply to
Rod Speed

You're too young to have had mercury amalgam fillings, aren't you? Or to have played harmlessly with liquid mercury when you were a child.

Cindy Hamilton

Reply to
angelicapaganelli

I don't see anything silly about it. It's a great benefit that many company's offer and which many company's need to offer to be able to hire the people they need. And the govt should make all healthcare expense tax deductible for individuals too, but neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have done it.

Reply to
trader_4

Again, who is this "us"? You claim to be a "computer consultant", yes? The self-employed can fully deduct the cost of healthcare insurance, just like a corporation can. So, if you're self-employed, your healthcare insurance is deductible too.

More nonsense. The rapid rise in healthcare costs has little to do with the fact that healthcare insurance is tax deductible. People don't get cancer or a stent because insurance is tax deductible.

Sure, I'm sure those ER doctors listened to your instructions on how to treat her. BTW, why did you take her to an ER instead of a witch doctor or hippie?

So, per the above, tell us, what insurance do you have? If you have insurance and you're self-employed, then it's fully deductible. And? You're not deducting it?

Another pig ignorant statement. It's like saying we could pop the home insurance, life insurance, auto insurance bubble by outlawing those. Oh, wait a minute, those are also insurances, which are deductible to businesses and guess what? There is no high cost problem. Doh!

Funny, I thought Trump just gave you a big tax cut.

Reply to
trader_4

On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 at 12:58:53 AM UTC-5, T wrote:

The lie repeated. The 40% to 60% is the historical effectiveness of the vaccine from studies of people who received it, versus those that did not.

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*References for the studies listed above can be found in the information below. Also, see the Why Get a Flu Vaccine[237 KB, 2 pages] fact sheet.

Arriola C, Garg S, Anderson EJ, et al. Influenza vaccination modifies disease severity among community-dwelling adults hospitalized with influenza. Clin Infect Dis. 2017; 65(8):1289-1297. doi: 10.1093/cid/cix468. Belshe RB, Mendelman PM, Treanor, et al. The efficacy of live attenuated, cold-adapted, trivalent, intranasal influenza virus vaccine in children. N Engl J Med. 1998; 338(20):1405-12. Benowitz I, Esposito DB, Gracey KD, et al. Influenza vaccine given to pregnant women reduces hospitalization due to influenza in their infants. Clin Infect Dis. 2010; 51(12):1355-61. Ciszewski A, Bilinska ZT, Brydak LB, et al. Influenza vaccination in secondary prevention from coronary ischaemic events in coronary artery disease: FLUCAD study. Eur Heart J. 2008 Jun; 29(11):1350-8. Colquhoun AJ, Nicholson KG , Botha JL, Raymond NT. Effectiveness of influenza vaccine in reducing hospital admissions in people with diabetes. Epidemiol Infect. 1997; 119(3):335-41. Ferdinands JM, Olsho LEW, Agan AA, et al. Effectiveness of influenza vaccine against life-threatening RT-PCR-confirmed influenza illness in US children, 2010-2012. J Infect Dis. 2014; 210(5):674-683. Havers FP, Sokolow L, Shay DK, Farley MM, et al. Case-control study of vaccine effectiveness in preventing laboratory-confirmed influenza hospitalizations in older adults, United States, 2010-2011. Clin Infect Dis. 2016; 63(4). Madhi SA, Cutland CL, Kuwanda L, et al. Influenza vaccination of pregnant women and protection of their infants. N Eng J Med. 2014; 371(10):1918-31. Nichol KL, Baken L, Nelson A. Relation between influenza vaccination and outpatient visits, hospitalization, and mortality in elderly persons with chronic lung disease. Annals of Internal Medicine 1999;130:397–403. Phrommintikul A, Kuanprasert S, Wongcharoen W,et al. Influenza vaccination reduces cardiovascular events in patients with acute coronary syndrome. Eur Heart J. 2011; 32(14):1730-5. Rondy M, El Omeiri N, Thompason MG et al. Effectiveness of influenza vaccines in preventing severe influenza illness among adults: A systematic review and meta-analysis of test-negative case-control studies. J. Infect. 2017; 75(5):381-394. doi: 10.1016/j.jinf.2017.09.010. Steinhoff MC, Katz J, Englund JA et al. Year-round influenza immunization during pregnancy in Nepal: a phase 4, randomized, placebo-controlled trial. 2017; 17(9): 981-989. DOI:

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Talbot HK, Griffin, MR, Chen Q, et al. Effectiveness of seasonal vaccine in preventing confirmed influenza-associated hospitalizations in community dwelling older adults. J. Infect Dis 2011; 203:500-8. Talbot HK, Zhu Y, Chen Q, et al. Effectiveness of influenza vaccine for preventing laboratory-confirmed influenza hospitalizations in adults, 2011-2012 influenza season. Clin Infect Dis. 2013; 56(12): 1774-7. Tapia MD, Sow SO, Boubou T, et al. Maternal immunisation with trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine for prevention of influenza in infants in Mali: a prospective, active-controlled, observer blind, randomised phase 4 trial. Lancet Infect Dis. 2016; 3099(16):30054-8. Thompson MG, Kwong JC, Regan AK, et al. Influenza vaccine effectiveness in preventing influenza-associated hospitalizations during pregnancy: a multi-country retrospective test negative design study, 2010-2016. CID. 2018; ciy737,
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Thompson MG, Pierse N, Sue Huang Q et al. Influenza vaccine effectiveness in preventing influenza-associated intensive care admissions and attenuating severe disease among adults in New Zealand 2012-2015. Vaccine. 2018; 36(39):5916-5925. DOI:
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Thompson MG, Li DK, Shifflet P, et al. Effectiveness of seasonal trivalent influenza vaccine for preventing influenza virus illness among pregnant women: a population-based case-control study during the 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 influenza seasons. Clin Infect Dis. 2014; 58(4):449-57. Udell JA, Zawi R, Bhatt DL, et al. Association between influenza vaccination and cardiovascular outcomes in high-risk patients: a meta-analysis. JAMA. 2013; 310(16): 1711-20. Zaman K, Roy E, Arifeen SE, et al. Effectiveness of maternal influenza immunization in mothers and infants. N Engl J Med. 2008; 359(15):1555-1564. doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa0708630.

That is the predicted rate

Yes, based on STUDIES DONE OF MANY PRIOR YEARS ACTUAL RESULTS of EFFECTIVENESS in PEOPLE VACCINATED

And if you don't get sick, you

Pig ignorant lie.

Typical diversion tactic. What Micky objected to was your lie that you can get flu by breathing the air of someone who was vaccinated, just from the vaccine.

Salt and even water are toxic if you take enough of them. AGain, this has been studied and the very small amounts in some vaccines today are generally accepted as safe. And it's a red herring anyway. Flu vaccines are available that don't have mercury in them.

Are you totally stupid? His point was exactly that. Those vaccines also have big companies, marketing, the govt behind them and you're not bitching about them.

No need for that, you're a rich target environment with what you do say.

Reply to
trader_4

Yes, I remember those days. It's ironic that it's Mr. T that turned out to be the one that's madder than a hatter, not us, isn't it?

Reply to
trader_4

The modern, up to date, grade school I went to had wooden desks with a hole for an ink well on the right and a pencil groove. The pencil groove was just right to shuttle a blob of mercury back and forth.

Reply to
rbowman

I don't know about your area but very few employers around here offer fully paid health insurance -- except local and federal government jobs of course.

Reply to
rbowman

Heh. Good one. I commend your knowledge of history.

Cindy Hamilton

Reply to
angelicapaganelli

My father was a dentist, and he brought me home a small bottle of mercury, which I used to play with as a child. With my fingers, no tools. Later I think I got another small bottle of it for free somehow.

I was going to make my own mercury switches after they stopped selling them. Wait, I still have the mercury switches I took out of the car I scrapped

I think I had some of his fillings long after he died, but no dentist ever said anything about mercury in them.

Yes, lol.

Reply to
micky

The mercury in filling is in an elemental form alloyed with tin, silver and copper metals that is generally consider safe. Likewise that in a thermometer or switch. The vapors emitted from unalloyed elemental mercury can be harmful, which is why one is encouraged not to play with it.

As opposed to inorganic mercury and methyl mercury (e.g. the type found in fish), which are harmful.

Reply to
Scott Lurndal

Hi DevNul,

I have to go with Rbowman on this one. With the exception of government workers that live high off the hog off the rest of us, fewer and fewer employers are providing good health insurance. Those that do are raising the deductibles so high that you go into debt with just the deductibles.

Those with good health insurance (outside of government workers) tend to be the "professions", meaning high paying jobs. And since these plans are subsidized through the tax code, the poorer folks that can't get decent health insurance ARE SUBSIDIZING THE RICH.

My big fear is that the temptation to solve the issue will be to socialize it. Then things to really go bad to much, much worse. We have to come up with market methods of bursting the medical bubble. Socialized medicine only works on paper. In practice, it really sucks.

Our health care in the country is the best in the world. It is just four times as expensive as it should be (basing this on health care that is not covered by insurance, such as lasik). As long as someone else is paying the bill, I don't see this getting any better any time soon.

-T

Reply to
T

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