I'm not calling you a liar, you dumb shit.
Read again what I said.
I pointed out if your story is true (and I'm not saying that it's not
true) then the amount of fraud in the billing relationship between your
insurance companies and hospitals in the US must be insane - and
therefore no wonder your heathcare insurance and delivery systems are so
Words mean something, by saying "if your story is true" absolutely is
calling mea liar, because you are NOT accepting my statement as
To answer 'falling for it" Again, the prices I paid were 1960 prices,
not simply low prices for today, but back to the really really normal
You're just some anonymous shmuck on usenet.
If I'm going to make a statement based on your evidence, I have to
premis my statement by not necessarily accepting your hospital billing
experience as factual or even typical.
And while you're being anally-focused on that aspect of my post, you're
completely missing the vastly more important point that I was making.
Which I will state again and see if it provokes a response from you:
Your hospital billing experience indicates that the amount of fraud in
the billing relationship between american insurance companies and
hospitals must be insane, fraudulent or even criminal - and therefore no
wonder your heathcare insurance and delivery systems are so screwed up.
If by "fraud" you mean the game played between healthcare providers and
insurance companies. Every insurance/medicare paid bill I've seen
includes some amount of "write-off". Providers use exaggerated list
prices to keep upward pressure on the amount that IC determines is
reasonable and customary.
That's a primary failing of the US heath-care system.
It employs about 2 million more people than it should in the back
offices of hospitals and insurance companies.
These are the people doing battle with each other on a daily basis over
billing and payments.
And I agree with what you said about Robery Macy's "cash-customer"
experience. He will likely get more bills in the mail and face creditor
problems over his recent visit to the ER.
The ER is peculiar in the landscape of the US medical system. I
understand you can't be denied emergency treatment if you show up at any
ER department, and some (large?) component of the cost of running ER's
is paid for by gov't.
So his experience of some administrator cutting him a huge deal because
he paid in cash is most likely not typical of other forms of medical
treatment and care (emergency vs elective). For example, if he was
planning to undergo some form of elective surgery (cardiac bypass,
cancer, etc) I doubt he would get very far in the preliminary work-up if
he expected to pay a "1960's" era bill for it.
And again being that he was an ER patient, and they supposedly cut him a
huge deal (orders of magnitude) this could be explained away as them
treating him as a charity case.
But yea. Robert - you come back here in 6 months and tell us how your
ER visit REALLY turned out from a cost point of view.
My experience with ERs suggests that you are not done paying.
Yes, you paid the hospital and got a discount (me too).
Now sit back and wait for the bill from the medical group that the MD
belongs to. And something else...I forget what, except that I remember
that 1 ER visit generated 3 bills (including the hospital, paid on the
By way of a life without insurance story...where I went for an
ultrasound an (don't remember which) paddle was attached
to my paperwork that I carried around the facility once they found out I
Many people have suggested that the insurance companies in fact pay *far
less* than what John Doe gets charged -- but perhaps that's only if they
have to bill John Doe. Hospital and medical-practice billing depts. are
huge and expensive.
Could include bills for the lab., the X-Ray dept., the radiologist,...
I worked for many years in the Business Ofc. at a large hospital.
Medicare, Medicaid and Blue Cross all paid on a per diem basis. Both for
inpatient and also for outpatient. There was a different per diem for the
outpat. clinic and for the Emerg. Dept. I seem to recall there was also a
perdiem for inpat. MV accidents, but it's so long ago don't recall exactly.
I have no idea who made up this per diem stuff. We just had to carry out
the billing to the insurances. Don't get me started on the Medicaid people
who came to the Emerg. Dept for stupid shit, just because it was for
There was the Hosp. on 1 bill and the radiologist on a 2nd bill. The Xrays
themselves were included with the hosp. bill. We used to get tons of calls
complaining. We couldn't control that, because it was the Radiologists
that wanted to bill separately. We told the patients to call the
Administrators and complain to them.
It was my understanding that the bill was 'total' else I would not
All results occurred AT THE TIME. no delay to interpret, implying that
again the bill was 'total'
Checking throu papers, I did not see any reference to potential follow
BUT, I will definitely come back and let people know either way.
That's true if you are talking about the *same* people each time.
If everyone sends a separate bill (including the company that
provides black pens to doctors to fill out forms, and the different
company that provides red pens to doctors to fill out forms, and
the janitorial services company that cleans up the operating room,
and the different janitorial services company that cleans up your
room after you leave, and the city water department that separately
meters each hospital room, and each individual nurse), then it's
not fraud. It's horribly inefficient, but it's not fraud.
I find it interesting that it would be actually worthwhile to have
a health insurance policy with a trillion-dollar deductible. They
will never pay anything. However, you get the insurance-company
prices, which may end up being a third of the originally-billed
amounts for lab tests and doctor visits, and you don't have to pay
No, they're in default when the loan repayment stops and it sounds like that
has already happened. Certainly a bankruptcy court will decide what, if any,
bills will be paid, but they're already in default.
Sure. That *has* to happen. The outgo has to come into line with the income.
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