I don't think an engine can be tuned to get equivalent mileage since ethanol has less energy per unit volume than gasoline. That is the primary reason fuel economy goes down as the % of ethanol goes up.
Wrote to try to be concise at cost of accuracy..."tuning" isn't really the idea, it's much more radical design modifications.
Ethanol has higher octane rating than gasoline and so can use much higher compression ratios which combined w/ other ethanol-specific features can offset a significant portion of the Btu density loss.
The overall key is whether the net $/mile is as good as or better than competition, not purely on raw mpg. If ethanol blends are less costly then the actual outlay may be equivalent or less. Some studies indicate that E85 may actually win on that basis even w/ current flex-fuel vehicles.
As noted earlier, when (or if) there is enough inertia developed that the infrastructure is developed to the point to make the price differential sufficient w/o the tax credit in the long term is still TBD. And, of course, it depends on what happens to oil prices--if they remain stable then it's a tougher road...
Mostly it's a perception thing--we all grew up w/ gasoline and its particular energy density and so a comparison to ethanol is favorable for it in our mindset. _IF_, otoh, it had turned out that gasoline wasn't as energy dense as it is, then we'd be thinking ethanol was a miracle fuel...
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You're right. My mistake. Avgas contains lead which is not good for catalytic convertors.
My experience was back in the day - before catalytic convertors.
The hidden cost of ethanol is at the grocery store. Have you seen what feed prices are or bought a box of cereal lately? We are burning food in our car driving up grocery costs. There is not much you eat that doesn't have some corn content somewhere in the chain.
I would interpret the point of requiring ethanol in gasoline differently, the major purpose is to provide a demand for corn and subsidize agricultural interests (Thank republicans for that). It does not reduce dependency on oil, some studies show that producing this ethanol actually results in a net INCREASE of oil used in the processing and transportation of the product. (Which makes perfect sense, considering the lack of lobbying against ethanol by oil interests.)
There are some technical benefits to adding ethanol to gasoline but they would be present even if the concentration was only a percent or 2.
We do not have a free market in this country and it is because that is what business interests want, not because of government. Other than to the extent that the money from business interests controls government policy.
Thank both parties. The vote on the farm bill in early '08 that continued the tariffs and the subsidies was approved by the Senate by a veto-proof margin of 81-15. The bill was approved by the House with an equally strong 318-106 majority.
In fact, GW threatened to veto it until the vote made it beside the point.
I get a kick out people making these Big Statements w/o looking at the actual votes. Most of really bad ones (this one, repeal of Glass Steagal, changes in the commodity futures trading laws, etc.) were passed by large bipartisan majorities.
Exactly, I can never understand why so many people willingly get into the bizzare useless battle "its the Republicans", "no, its the Democrats" when the reality is *BOTH* sides are equally involved with the proof being the tally of the actual votes which anyone can verify.
Except non pilot/non plane owners can't legally buy it, and it has more lead than the highest lead motor fuel EVER had (by a multiple of something like 10) which will kill your oxygen sensors ant catalytic converters in short order, and lead foul your plugs and valves as well.
I use shell ultra up here in my snowblower and mower because up here it has no hooch in it. I occaisionally use 100LL drained from one of the planes (after long storage, or if it has accumulated too much water, etc) in the snow blower.
Not even close to the real reason. The REAL reason is the evap control systems on today's cars. The tanks are not vented to the atmosphere, so you do not get moist air drawn into the tank in the evening when the tank cools off, and the moisture from that air therefore does not condense into the tank. Condensation due to temperature change making the tank "breath" is the major source of moisture in vehicle fuel tanks - and sealed/controlled vent fuel systems eliminate that source.
Steve hasn't lived and driven very long in a cold climate, I would guess. Frozen gas lines have long been a curse in cold humid areas.
Still a very real danger in the aviation world, where the general aviation fleet averages well over 30 years of age, and all fuel systems are fully vented.
When my friend bought his cherry 1946 Aercoupe this summer the tanks were likely less than half full - the plane had been sitting about a year, and he drained several quarts of water out of the tanks. ( drained ALL the gas out and had to flush several times with clean fresh gas before no more water could be found in the test samples)
(the source of some good hooch free gas for the snow blowers this winter after all the water is settled out)
Which really didn't have ANY causitive relationship to the amount of water in the fuel. Old carbureted vehicles generally had open vented tanks. Virtually no fuel injected vehicles have open vented tanks.
Which means you are buying the ethanol, even if you are not putting it in your tank (and even if you do not own or drive a vehicle)
The problem doesn't stop with the amount of fuel required to produce the corn, and then the ethanol from the corn. If it did, it would be a simple matter to switch to ethanol to fuel the equipment and the still.
The problem is the feed stock. CORN is not the right, or even sensible product from which to produce ethanol, particularly as a fuel to reduce oil dependancy, because corn requires huge amounts of ammonia fertilizers - the production of which requires HUGE amount of natural gas or petroleum......
It does. If you remove the agricultural subsidies the American farmer gets to produce corn, and the subsidies given to the ethanol producers for producing the ethanol, gasoline is less expensive (before taxation) than booze alchohol (even made from unsubsidized, imported cane sugar) before taxes.
Before cat converters was also WELL before ethanol blended gasoline.
The other issue is water. Corn needs a lot of water and we will run out of water long before we run out of oil. The Ogalalla aquifer that supplies most if the midwest where the corn comes from is dropping several feet a year. That is "fossil water" and when it's gone, it's gone too. It will take centuries to recharge.
You don't know the mexican diet, do you? They do not eat the sweet corn you eat as niblets or corn on the cob. They eat "field corn", milled into corn flour and corn meal - as does a very large percentage of the people of low income countries around the world. The majority of sub-sahara Africa subsists on "field corn" - those that do not subsist on Manioc, a starchy root crop from which tapioca is also made. That same corn is used to provide corn starch, used as a feedstock for plastics and other insustry, as well as foodstuffs, and corn syrup/corn sugar used as a sweetener in a very large percentage of foods on the world's food shelves.
A study several years ago noted that corn was present, in one form or another, in something like 85% of products on north american shelves - food and non-food alike.
And you can't buy "flex fuel". In some parts of North america (and even other parts of the world) you can buy E85 - which is 15% gasoline and 85% hooch.
The pork barrel knows no political limits. The feed trough does not discriminate- one hog is as good as the next at feeding time.
snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote the following:
Not to worry. Global warming will provide more fresh water than we can ever use. We'll be swimming in it, or drowning in it, one of the two.
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