OT, I guess. What happens with FIOS

[Uncle Monster]

Most people have no idea of what's in those nondescript buildings and under the streets and sidewalks of their cities and towns.

[8~{} Uncle Monster

[mm]

Maybe, maybe not.` Ng_reader said the same thing, but I don't know why you people think that. Used to be, people leased their phone, even though it say on their own table or was screwed to their own wall.

You can lease furniture, you can lease a piano, you can rent an electric wheelchair, you can rent a tuxedo and put it in your closet. Why would you assume that everything in your house is yours, without reading the terms of service, which probably vary from state to state, and which can probably change on 30 days notice published at the public utility commission and posted on the internet at www.who-looks-there?

Maybe, but I woudl stand over them from start to finish. A) It's hard to tell if someone is listening when you're talking. B) Even if they say OK, I won't take them out, they can deny later that they said it. C) They can say they said it but they forgot. They can actually forget. They can schedule you for replacement copper and never show up, and how long will

You never can tell what people will do when you're not looking.

[mm]

Is this Verizon in Texas, or another company? It's another company, I think.

My friend and I are in Maryland, but I know Verizon is in a lot of states north of here.

Sometimes the same company has different policies in different places. My brother got cable internet in Dallas, Comcast I think, and the free install wouldn't put it in the room he wanted (which was the hardest room). When I got back here, the guy at the comcast booth at a hamfest said in Baltiomre that they would put int in any room you wanted, for the free install, even if it required work. He knew I was just chatting, and not a customer so he had little reason to lie, and that's what he said.

[mm]

Someday they'll probably take every thing out of the central office that is needed to run on coppper, but until then, what maintenance is required for a homeowner's little piece of wire that he's not using?

Doesn't it cost a lot more on Fios than what I have now?

I think DSL probably works better on fiber, but there wouldn't be any improvement for voice phone calls.

If fios isn't more expensive, there is still the bit about power failures. Why would one want to have to have a UPS to power fios, even if it worked, when a copper wired phone requires no electicity except what the phone company provides? It's nice when the power is out and you can't watch tv and your UPS isn't big enough to spend more than 10 minutes on the computer, to talk on the phone all night.

[Jon Danniken]

Orgies with operators.

Jon

[George]

You simply unplug it from the wall outlet and plug it into the UPS.

It isn't much more involved than plugging in a toaster and besides thats what the grandkids are for.

As I said if it doesn't happen people will be wondering why their "basic" comcast bill is $250.00/month.

[George]

Sure, but if they don't do it they will be out of business. The cable companies are deploying VoIP and essentially becoming phone companies. Since they can do it over their existing cable plant they can offer it for a lower cost because they don't need to install a new cable system to do it. So it doesn't cost them a lot to become a competitive phone service provider. If the phone companies don't respond with similar bundled services they need to prepare for eventual shutdown.

[trader4]

Well, I did a little research and while it does appear that you can indeed just plug the FIOS eqpt into a UPS, what I found raises new issues. A battery backup unit and a power supply have to be located inside the house to power the FIOS termination box on the outside of the house. Additionally, the guy in this article who had it installed said that per Verizon the power supply can't be plugged into a power strip, it has to go directly into a wall outlet. So, I don't know what their official position is on plugging it into a UPS would be. Certainly you could do it after they left. However, how about if you don't have an outlet at all that is convenient to where the service needs to enter the house? It does raise more installation issues.

The point is some folks may have good reason to not go through all this.

Except that in this case, the "toaster" may be in a crawl space or God knows where. And what if there is no convenient AC outlet? Who pays to get that installed?

Nonsense. That didn;t happen 30 years ago, when cable were the only act in town, other than OTA. Don't get me wrong. More competition in this case is good. But to claim the sky is falling and cable is going to cost $250 a month unless we force people into fiber from the phone company is silly. Ever here of Direct TV and Dish?

The current penetration rate of cable companies taking away landline phone business is very modest. I get solicited constantly to go with Cablevision's VOIP and ditch Verizon landline. I tell them no, because for me, it only amounts to maybe $10 a month. And there are the dirty little secrets they don't tell you about:

1 - They give you a VOIP box that you get to install yourself. Well, guess what? It's designed to just plug a phone into it, not to be installed to connect to the existing phone wiring in your house. That's fine if you just have a cordless phone. But how about if you have a TIVO, a fax machine, and an alarm system that dials out, all of which are distributed around the house. Do I want to figure out how to intercept the incoming phone lines, turn it off, connect in the Cablevision box, make sure it works correctly with the alarm system, etc? I had a friend that tried to do it, wound up with hum on the line. 2 - I haven't checked recently, but when I did a couple years ago, alarm companies like ADT would not support service via VOIP 3 - Call quality issues. On the existing landline phone system, once a call is setup, you have a guaranteed timeslot that get filled with a voice A/D conversion at an 8khz rate and delivered exactly at that rate and in order to the other end. With VOIP, the voice samples get sent and routed like any other internet packet. Meaning there is no guaranteed delivery time, which can lead to voice qualtiy issues. That has gotten better in recent years, but I don't know anyone that would argue that the call reliability or voice quality are as good as landline.

The whole thing is also being driven by the other side of the equation. That being that the phone company wants the $130 a month part of the bill for cable and internet more than they want the $40 bill for phone service.

[mm]

So that's why it would matter! Isn't it obvious that most people (all people?) want to pay less for something if it is just as good. If I have a temporary need for FIOS for tv or internet, I shouldn't allow them to trick me (by meanss of some bundle or package the consequences of which I don't understand) into FIOS for phone if that means that I won't be able to go back to copper phone. Or if I have a permanent need for high speed, it means that if I move out and rent or sell my house, I will either have to hide this from a prospective renter (and antagonize him in the process) or buyer, or I'll have to tell him and risk losing the rental or sale when he finds out he'll have to pay for FIOS, and that without paying an electrician can never get anything cheaper, even though the people next door on both sides of him are paying a lot less for phone.

That's not going to be for years and it's speculation in that there are lots of ways to make money. For example, by advertising or by normal demand they might get everyone to want FIOS, so that few or none want to move backwards. Although I still have a dial phone connected, I don't object to them taking out dial-capabilities now, or even 10 years ago if it costs more than a trivial amount of money to maintain.

As to going out of business, that's their problem a lot more than it is my problem. As long as they sell the cheap, original version of phone service, then people should know and protect themselves from company policies. Where this applies, everyone should realize that their intention will be to remove the copper if they put in FIOS for everything.that's what I'm going to buy, and and if putting in FIOS will cause them to

Maybe this policy should be regulated by law. Don't forget that the phone company is a public utility. Don't let conservatives convince you that nothing should be regulated. If they had their way, some would want to remove all the building codes and let people build anything they wanted, regardless of the fires, disease, and collapses that resulted.

Not removing copper doesn't change the equation. If FIOS is a better product, enough people will want it that the phone company will do fine.

If VOIP is better (which aiui, it's not) why is wrong if it wins?

That is their problem. I don't have to subvert my interests to promote them.

mm

[mm]

This all started when they started putting the gas pipes and electric wires IN the walls. They should have left them outside so people would appreciate how complicated they are. Easier to repair too.

I agree that it's hard to realize, even if one knows, how much stuff is down there. I think there is a big oil pipe running from Texas to New Jersey and and non-consumer gas pipes all over the place, and lots of stuff liket that.

[George]

I seriously doubt anyone would even think twice about how the phone/data/TV service arrived into their apartment or house. I don't understand what you mean "pay for FiOS". Wouldn't they need to "pay for cable" or "pay for phone service" if they wanted it regardless of the provider?

You are completely missing the big picture. You have to plan far out into the future for this kind of stuff. The phone company can't simply sit on its hands and then one day wake up and realize that they lost 85% of their customers to the cable companies. My buddy works for one of the big cable companies and they can't even come close to addressing the demand for their phone service. And the cable company install is about

5% (or less) of the complexity of a FiOS install.

You may not realize it but you are using VoIP pretty much every time you use your telephone that is connected via copper lines. Pretty much all signaling after the CO and sometimes before is digital.

Obviously it is their problem. If they don't promote FiOS and loose most of their customers how much do you think a plain copper line might cost? I think it might be quite expensive if only 10% of the people on a block have one .

[HeyBub]

It's "Libertarians" that believe nothing should be regulated. We conservatives think some things should be: the border, terrorists, and, er..., maybe something else. As for building codes etc., the government could, perhaps, mandate insurance to cover any losses (as they do with auto liability insurance) and then let people build - or drive - any old way they want.

I live in a city with no zoning and it works out swell.

[mm]

Maybe you are out of touch with people who have less money than you do. We have millions, maybe 10's of millions of home buyers who learned what happens when the interest on their mortgage goes up, and learned that they can't buy as big a home that they might want, or spend another 500 dollars a year on this, and 500 on that, and on that.

I heard other study on the radio a day or two ago, that when Pell grants are lowered just 100 or 200, that one can notice the students who drop out of college, because they and their parents have already stetched to the limit to come up with the money they are spending for college with the full Pell grant.

This is not special to to house buying or college. My brother makes a good living, thank God, and what he does is buy whatever he needs and puts the rest in a savings account. When he has enough, he buys a stock or a bond. But most people have a budget, even a written budget, and they try to stick to it.

And all of those people have a price point. A price above which they will not buy. Regardless of how low or high it is, even if it is higher than it should be for their income, they have one.

If someone here was buying a home and all they considered was how much money they had to put down, everyone here would ridicule them. They have to consider the mortage, insurance, taxes, upkeep, AND utilities.

Of course not every buyer will be disuaded by another 200 or 500 a year, but some of those people will feel, Why should I pay 200 for FIOS when I have no interest in it, when I can buy the other house, and for the same 200 extra, get that extra tree, or the

Car dealers and other vendors know that "throwing in" some little cheap almost worthless feature can make a sale. Maybe not as common, but insisting on selling the buyer an undesirer feature can queer a sale.

You just agreed in your previous reply to me that FIOS costs a lot more. So I don't understand the point of your question. It's like asking, wouldn't a woman need to pay for a dress to wear to a wedding, so why should she object to paying 3 times as much as she paid for her previous dress?

They have to plan, not me. I have to worry about paying my expenses and those of people who depend on me, and saving money for retirement.

I never suggested they sit on their hands. They can install as many Fios lines as they want. That doesn't mean they have to take out the copper and especially not by tricking me. And what if I move for another job and rent my home, and the tenant puts in Fios and has no idea they'll be taking out the copper, or doesn't appreciate the consequencs. Then when I get back, I get the shaft. A friend of mine got a job in another city for a year and rented his house to a tenant, and moved back in a year later, when he got a better job in his home town. Another friend kept his house as an investment when he got married and bought a bigger house with his wife. When he got divorced, it was coincidentally just as the lease on the rental was expiring, and he moved back into his original house. Neither of these tenants screwed anything up,

Why does any of this mean they should take the copper out of house that has it, when they install Fios, and why does any of this mean I should cooperate?

I think when you talk about high demand, you are arguing against your own point. If they have high demand, they ARE making money, and it won't be necessary to take out the copper when eventually everyone wants FIOS. Even if it is only 90% who have ordered it voluntarily, I'm not saying they can't phase out copper when usage on a street is

90% FIOS, or when it costs too much or they need the space at the central station. But that is not the situation we're talking about.

But it is never going to cost them anything to let the copper sit in someone's house and in the yard leading to the house, and it's not costing them anything now to keep the rest of the copper supply system (switches and whatever accessories are required) , becuase they can't provide FIOS for more than a few percent of customers anyhow, and haven't convinced more than 1 or 2 percent to buy it.

I'm not an enemy of corporations. I don't have as much money as my brother, but I have stock in corporations and have had since my father left me stocks when he died when I was 8. My mother lived off that money, the income from mine and my brother's and hers plus part of the principal for 20 years. (My father set it up, as well he should have, that no money went to my brother or me until my mother died, unless my mother requested part of the principal for special expenses.) I know that corporations are supposed to make profits and when they follow proper practices, I'm in favor of it.

We already know that VErizon isn't big on full disclosure, and without full disclosure in advance, the company IMO isn't honest**. I've referring to the 20 dollar connection and shipping charge they tacked on after I was 90% done signing up, when they bragged in advance in detail about *every*thing that they gave me "Free". The installation charge (for work done at their office, since I did the work here) cost more that the "First Month Free" that they bragged about everywhere.

**That's why the 20 dollars bothered me so much. It's not the 20 dollars so much as I think they weren't honest.

So that's fine. It reinforces my question. Not removing the copper doesn't change t he equation, and if FIOS can't compete with VOIP, is more expensive or does less well or customers don't like it, why is it wrong if VOIP wins and Fios losses?

It costs them NOTHING now. They have the wire in place adn they have the central station equipment in place as long as anyone at the local station is using copper.

We're at 98% now. When we get down to 20% we can make plans.

[mm]

What's the difference?

I don't like using a UPS. I don't like the fact that whenever I'm using it, it is hot. I'm wasting electricity. When it's summer time, I'm heating my room which is either already hot, or which I'm paying for AC to cool.

And I don't want to buy a second one just for the basement, or have to move this one during a power failure. Especially at night when I can't see what I'm doing. (I have a flashlight, but not in every room. I have to go get it.) All so much simpler with copper.

[larry]

Update! The large Central Office battery rooms are shrinking fast: Solid state equipment is more power efficient. CO's are now unmanned. CO only has 12-24 hr battery. CO has no generator. Lead and sulfuric acid are banned or hazmat.

It's much more cost effective to pull up a portable 50KW Onan at the CO building and "plug" into the charger buss. One portable can easily support a dozen COs during long, wide area power outages and "parked" where needed.

The cell sites work the same way.

The phone companies are quietly doing away with the massive lead liability they had. Find a piece of lead jacketed phone cable these days, and figure the tons of lead leached from aerial cable.

Your copper phone line is now powered from a local neighborhood fiber fed "hut" or RemoteTerminal and a few automotive sized batteries. It's not a big city thing either, rural Adams County Pa now has many more RTs than COs!

All this new fiber stuff is moving the RT and terrabits to your back door ;-)

-larry / dallas

[Uncle Monster]

Did you go to the site I posted? It shows the new technology in batteries that are now in use and there are some pictures of the remote equipment and the newer battery rooms. I have, on more than occasion, dug up lead sheathed power and telecom cables. Before the advent of solid plastic UF power cable, the only thing that worked well for direct burial was a romex like cable with oiled paper insulation and a lead sheath. I've come across old telecom cable that had oiled paper insulated small wires in lead. I'll bet it was a real chore to make water proof splices.

[8~{} Uncle Monster

[George]

Its just a cost cutting measure. A lot of people don't realize how Mickey Mouse some carriers infrastructure really is. The traditional old school carriers such as Verizon still have lots of battery and also installed generators.

Same is true of the cell carriers. Verizon Wireless has battery and almost always an installed generator at each cell site. Other operators typically have only minimal battery and a power connector.

A trailer mounted generator might be a good idea for a really local outage but having one installed on each site is just a little nicer. Ask anyone who was in the hurricanes in Florida about wireless carriers and they will tell you only one of them was up during the storms and for the weeks after when there was no commercial power.

I know someone who works for a particular wireless carrier and he tells me they have exactly two trailer mounted generators to cover 2 1/2 states.

[jJim McLaughlin]

Here in PDX, OR., Comcast is pushing VOIP on their cable, and including a warning that you can't reach local 911 service with their VOIP.

Somehow, I don't think thats a problem unique to Comcast, or to this area.

Why would any body use VOIP?

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Because it is cheap compared to the phone companies. The $99 packages are a good deal. When my cable company finally had it, I may consider changing.

[jJim McLaughlin]

Sorry Ed, I have to disagree with you.

VOIP is not cheap. And the $ 99.00 packages around here are a low ball come on, and jump way up when the promotional period runs out in 12 months.

I know that individual situations will vary, but.......

My POTS dial tone from Qworst is 24 and change a month.

My "dial one" carrier for long distance is an outfit called myGTC. I pay $ 0.025 (thats 2 and a half cents a minute) for long distance, anywhere in the US or Canada.

Even with "unlimited" long distance from Comcast here on their VOIP service, my total phone bills for local and long distance never approach the $ 48 plus a month that Comcast wants as their "real" price for VOIP.

I'd have to spend more than $ 23.00 on long distance at $ 0.025 / minute -- more than 900 minutes - ~ 15 hours on long distance for VOIP to make mere economic sense.

And with Comcast, I can't reach local police, fire and medical emergency service on 911.

Not to mention that Qworst has to get rate increases approved by the Oregon PUC and Comcast doesn't. And I can get a response from Qworst because the PUC monitors service quality and response / repair time with Qworst, but not Comcast/

I don't see any economic benefit (Comcast is more expesive than my current set up) or technological benefit (no phone in a power outage, and we get lots of power outages from November through March) or service benefit (no 911 service on Comcast) to Comcast VOIP.

Other areas of the country may have a different calculus, and other folks may have different calling patterns, but for me VOIP makes no sense.

YMMV