| The only information that can be read with a remote reader (assuming that
| reader is within a few inches of the card) is the same information
| the card and readable on the mag stripe. Those details are insufficient to
| create a cloned card.
Do you happen to have any links to info
about this? I don't understand the technical
details of how it works, and without knowing
that it's hard to assess the risks, or lack of
| > Do you happen to have any links to info
| > about this? I don't understand the technical
| > details of how it works, and without knowing
| > that it's hard to assess the risks, or lack of
| > them.
| Google "credit card safety tip".
I've done some searching and found some info,
but I haven't come across a full, authoritative
explanation of the whole thing. Mr. Conan Doyle
claims to know all about it, so I figured perhaps
he can share his source. If you find the full story
by Googling I'd be glad to follow your links. What
I'm wondering about is the full story on how the
chips actually work.
RFID comes is several different flavors. There's a lot of incorrect information
floating around. this is one of the more reputable sources about the technology:
When you run across passive vs. active, understand that passive RFID does not
require a battery and is the type of RFID used in some credit cards.
| > I've done some searching and found some info,
| >but I haven't come across a full, authoritative
| >explanation of the whole thing
| RFID comes is several different flavors. There's a lot of incorrect
| floating around. this is one of the more reputable sources about the
| When you run across passive vs. active, understand that passive RFID does
| require a battery and is the type of RFID used in some credit cards.
I think I understand RFID. A very small chip
holds a single, large ID number, which can
be read from varying distances depending on
the reader and the chip. That's the kind
of thing I was thinking of in the scenario of
CVS reading the contents of your car. In
particular, I was highlighting that any limits
in read distance shouldn't be assumed to be
What I don't understand is EMV, particularly how
it's being used in credit cards. You seem to know
all about how that works and how it's being
implemented, while all I've been able to find is
general tips about "getting ready for chip cards".
What little I've found seems to imply there's some
kind of token number passed, not exposing any
pertinent information, but I don't understand how
that can work securely. And you said the chip
contains the credit card number and name, which
would imply a chip is not secure in any way. In fact,
it would seem to me to be less secure. If the chip
holds a unique ID sent to MC/Visa to be matched
up with your account, and US merchants don't require
a PIN number, then it would seem fairly easy to just
tape a programmed chip to any old card and pass
it over checkout readers.
I also don't understand why/how EMV is different
from RFID. Is EMV just the name used for RFID chips
being used in cards?
I think someone said that EMV uses metal connectors
like a flash drive into USB socket. Anyone can confirm
this? I'd be a lot more comfortable with a pin and
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
From the Visa website:
"For contact chip cards, your customers must insert the chip card
into the payment terminal reader instead of swiping the card as they do
with a magnetic stripe card. Also, your customers must leave the chip
card in the payment terminal reader until the total transaction amount
is known. "
Thus it has to be inserted AND kept in the reader for the entire
interaction. Appears to be no radio signals.
?Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.?
| I think someone said that EMV uses metal connectors
| like a flash drive into USB socket. Anyone can confirm
| this? I'd be a lot more comfortable with a pin and
| socket setup.
?? Maybe you should drink some of your morning coffee
beofre posting? :)
| > ?? Maybe you should drink some of your morning coffee
| > beofre posting? :)
| Coffee? What's that? I've heard that name, but
| being Mormon, can't say as I recognize it.
Sorry. I misunderstood your post. You knew more
about it than I did. This is the first I've heard of
EMV contacts. All I've seen or read about up until
now is embedded chips that are read at a distance.
I'd thought that was what this whole conversation
was about and didn't know there was a type that
had to be inserted into a reader. I received a new
PayPass MasterCard just last month and that, too,
has only an embedded chip. (Which now has a tiny hole
through it. :)
All I know about EMV chips is what I've read on this
list. So, now we're even.
Any RFID cards that arrive here will get the same
treatment. Holy chip!
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
Next year or so you may be calling for a new card when yours is not
accepted. Initially, you can swipe, but once all the readers are
upgraded, it may not work as the reader defaults to the chip if it is a
Fear of the unknown. People used to fear the automobile too.
I wonder what the outcome may be if you disable the rfid, your number is
stolen and a counterfeit card is made with no rfid to validate it like
the disabled one that the owner has been using?
Liability for the disabled security perhaps?
| That's correct. There is a small retangular gold
| contact plate on an EMV card.
If that's the case then I haven't seen an EMV
card. The new card I got recently has no such
rectangle, but it has a chip ands is labeled
PayPass. So I guess that's a simple RFID with
the card number on it? When I read it via an
Android app I think it came up with a number of
2 character combinations, like a MAC address
or hexidecimal byte notation.
I'd still be curious to learn about EMV functionality,
if you come across a suitable link. I'd like to understand
exactly how that transaction works.
Walmart has actually relaxed their rules about swiping EMV cards. Initially
(laste last year) when they first turned on the chip reader at their checkouts,
they enforced the rule that EMV cards could not be swipred. They had to be
inserted into the chip reader. Depending on how the bank had programmed the
card, the user either entered a PIN or signed the signature pad.
What Walmart discovered is that people were easily confused by the card slot,
and that some banks had programmed their EMV cards to use a PIN but hadn't
informed their customers that they had to use a PIN. The customers in turn got
confused over the difference between a debit PIN and a credit PIN.
So Walmart relaxed the rule and allowed chip cards to be swiped. Come this
October, they will go back to not allowing EMV cards to be swiped.
Swiping will still be allowed at retailers who do not have EMV card readers.
However, the retailer will be liable for any fraud against an EMV card used in a
swipe reader, not the bank.
1. I got the chipped card last fall.
2. I swiped it at Wal-Mart.
3. That failed. Checker told me to use reader.
4. I used reader.
5. I use reader whenever I go to Wal-Mart.
6. I never knew of the change (allowing swiping).
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