OT, but you guys might know about shotguns.

[mm]

They've been referring to the shot that Dick Cheney shot the other guy with as B-B's. But they also say it's 5mm.

Isn't that bigger than a B-B? About twice as big?

Do they use that term

a) because B-B's sound less violent than bird-shot? b) because the doctors don't know exactly what a B-B is and/or they used a word that they thought everyone could understand? c) I had a fourth possibility but I can't remember it. d) Because *I* don't know what a B-B is.

I also noticed someone call it buck-shot! :)

One network report I heard was that "most of the blast [or at least most of the blast that hit him] hit him in the chest." When I first heard about this, I thought the gun wasn't aimed high enough, and he got one piece of shot in his face, one in his neck, and one in his chest. But it sounds like the gun was pointed right at him. If that is the case, how can the news suggest that he may have been in the line of fire? I don't hunt but I've been in the fields when quail or pheasant are there, and I've seen them quickly fly straight up when I get too close. Even if he was facing the birds, Cheney could not get a shot off while the birds were still at arm level, and no way could he turn around in time to do this (The news says he turned around to fire.) Maybe he's getting old and doesn't lift the gun as easily as he once did?? So he thought he had pushed the gun up but he hadn't. (I have been trap shooting, and they're not light.)

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[Doug Miller]

Journalists, being for the most part liberals, don't know squat about firearms. So it's not surprising that they can't get the story right.

BB is 0.18 inches = 4.57 mm.

e) because the newsies don't know what the hell they're talking about.

For hunting quail, you'd want to use probably No. 7-1/2 or No. 8 shot, maybe No. 6. A No. 6 pellet is about 2mm in diameter; the others are even smaller.

Like I said... they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

[David Martel]

mm,

Land isn't flat so it's possible to shoot downward at flying birds. Trap shooting often takes place on flat land but hunting frequently does not. Of course Cheney may have done this for many other reasons.

Dave M.

[trader4]

The fact that he was struck by a direct shot is the classic definition of being in the line of fire, isn;t it? What he was hit by was bird shot, which is roughly the same size as a BB used in an air gun. The round shot pellets from a shotgun are sometimes referred to as BB's, usually when talking about where one of them went, like "One of the BB;s hit my winshield!" Which is easier than saying "One of the bird shot pellets hit my windshield."

I don't hunt but I've been in the fields when quail or

One of the likely scenarios would be that Cheney was following a bird that was flying off to one side. As he was swinging around, the buddy was walking around.

[bill allemann]

some of the "journalists" are amazing. David Gregory at NBC appears to be narcissistic to a pathological extent. His "career" now is only self aggrandizement and attacking the administration, rather than reporting news. I guess he wants to be the next Dan Rather..

[Chris Lewis]

According to :

I saw a video of something like this a few weeks ago. Father, son, and a few others out hunting quail. Father standing, oh, maybe

150-200 feet away from the rest, using a video camera to record the hunt.

IIRC, you see a bird far off to one side between the hunters and the father, track across the screen, and one of the hunters swing around and fire. At which point the audio has some (bleeped ;-) swearing and the camera hits the dirt.

The son had lost track ("situational awareness" ;-) of where his dad was, and as he was tracking the bird, the shotgun was aimed at his father at the point he pulled the trigger.

The father got hit by some of the pellets.

Not having hunted in this way, I would imagine that this is much more common (compared to similar accidents with, say, duck or deer hunting) when there's bunches of people wandering about, especially if there's beer involved. You just don't hear about it much because the injuries are usually very minor.

[There was a segment on Orange County Choppers a little while ago, where they were invited on a pheasant hunt in Scotland (I think). Given their antics and careless behaviour, I'm amazed they didn't kill each other, the guides and camera crew.]

[DT]

Well, strictly speaking, BB is one specific size of shot. Here is a complete chart:

But as others have posted, BB is kind of a generic term for shot.

Dennis

[barry]

Maybe someday soon there can be a discussion without "lefty" (or neocon) rants. Remember: W has mandated civility. (Rove costs extra, though.)

J

[mm]

To comment on my own sentence: Of course that doesn't mean exactly 5.

Thanks. Very interesting. It seems the small size of buck shot is only 6.1 mm. Not that much bigger.

There seem to be nine sizes smaller than BB. Is some of it actually called "2 shot" or "9 shot", or are those subdivisions of BB, like BB

2 or BB 9?

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[mm]

Yes, you're right. :-) In my defense. I think they used the word "but" which in that sentence sort of blamed him for being in the line of fire, and I took "line of fire" to mean "expected line of fire". This is back when I was thinking there was no way Cheney could be intending to fire so low. But your last sentence below could account for that, and also the other suggestion that it was hilly, and the birds started lower than either of the men.,

By the way, I hope they guy gets better soon. (I guess I figured that was obvious, but maybe not.)

I guess I had forgotten how big they were. It's been 50 years.

Fair enough. I tend to be too picky at stuff like that, but if that's the practice, fine.

That does seem to account for everything. Thanks.

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[mm]

That's darn close to 5mm. So they were right! Why did you say they didn't get the story right.?

That was what I meant for c, but you've explained that it's not true. It's d, that I myself didn't know how big a BB was.

Either I've forgotten how big the BB's were in my BB gun, or the term was used generically even back then. Either way, it's my mistake, and not any reporter's.

I didn't say that was a news man. They had video of a lot of people. I don't remember who it was, but if you're going to campaign against newsmen, you should limit it to when they're wrong. Otherwise you look as bad as what you say they are.

My post was not meant to be a trap. Sorry.

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[spudnuty]

Well from all the reports it's not clear what was going on. I've photographed hunts with those farm raised and planted birds. The birds are often so docile that the guides would have to kick them to get them to flush. There were also reports that their wings were clipped, which makes them not fly so good. That could account for the height problem. In any case if you're line abreast and the bird crosses that line a good hunter pulls off the target. In any case you should know your target. I have hunted with guys that weren't aware of where they were swinging their guns. I have also known guys in the Army that didn't know which way to point their M-14. You quickly learn who to trust and who you trust to cover you without shooting you in the back. Richard

[DT]

It is called just like the chart lists. "I'm usin' number 6", Buck shot sizes are much different than the same number regular shot, so people use the term "ought", as in, "Yah shoulda used double-ought buck".

Dennis

[whoa yeah]

by Bob Marley

I shot the elderly, but I tried to shoot the quale covey. I shot the elderly, but I tried to shoot the quale covey.

All around in my beltway town They're trying to track me down. They say they want to bring me in guilty For the killing quale by an elderly, For the shot of an elderly. But I say:

I shot the elderly, but I swear it was a before dinner drink. I shot the elderly, and it combined with my heart drug i think.

[Andy Asberry]

This is what I've read in two newspaper articles and on the net.

There were 3 hunters plus the land owner, who was not hunting, in the hunting party. (Plus, I assume, numerous Secret Service agents and the ambulance attendants that were said to be standing by due to Cheney's health problems.)

According to the land owner, Whittington had shot a bird and had gone into some tall grass to retrieve it. He was rejoining the others who had gone on ahead. At this time, another covey flushed and Cheney was swinging on a bird that flew to his rear. The bird was in line with Whittington as Cheney fired. He was hit in the cheek, neck and chest.

A preliminary sheriff's report stated that neither drugs nor alcohol were a factor. All of the hunters were wearing orange vests. The distance from Cheney to Whittington was 30 yards. Cheney had a non-resident Texas hunting license but did not have the Upland Game Bird Stamp. He was issued a citation and bought the $7.00 stamp.

I've been peppered with birdshot before. It stings but only once did it penetrate the skin. And I realize the skin of a 78 year old is much thinner. I set out to find some information on shotgun ballistics.

Remember that with birdshot, smaller pellets have higher numbers. Number 6 shot is twice the weight of number 8 shot. Typical shot sizes for quail are 7 1/2, 8 and 9. I picked number 8 for my research because it is the middle size.

Most of the info came from gunshot forensic sites.

Number 6 was the smallest size pellet listed. An individual pellet has a muzzle energy of 3 ft/lbs. It will penetrate ballistic gelatin (equivalent to human flesh) 4 to 6 inches at a range of 5 yards. Since a number 8 is half the weight of number 6, it would have 1.5 ft/lbs of energy.

What I could not find was the velocity at 30 yards. The muzzle velocity is about 1200 ft/sec. The drag coefficient of a sphere at this speed is about 1.27. Maybe someone can calculate the downrange speed and therefore the remaining energy at 30 yards.

I did find some state wildlife statistics that said only 42% of birds would be hit and only 10% of birds HIT at that range would die.

Depending on the choke of Cheney's gun, up to 187 pellets could be expected to hit in a 30 inch circle at 30 yards. That jives with the doctor's estimate of 200 hitting Whittington. Probably less because no man can cover a 30 inch circle with his body.

[Jim Elbrecht]

-snip-

-snip-

It might be referred to as BB's in your circle-- but it is dead wrong. "One of the #4 shot hit my windshield" would be heard in my circle.

BB is a size of shot. The shot that is proper for quail is in the #8 range. I'm not sure what size load you might have in a 28guage-- but as a reference there would be less than 100 BB sized shot pellets in a one ounce load. There would be closer to 500 #8 shot pellets. They are close to the size of a head of a pin.

I doubt they would be using #4 shot-- but that was what the local news showed last night. Probably what the local store had the most of as we us #4's for squirrel, rabbit & partridge in my part of the world.

Jim

[Special Ed]

Neither quail nor pheasant fly "straight up" when flushed. They go off at an angle that rarely exceeds 45 degrees. Usually they hug the ground-- rarely getting higher than 10-15 feet. You may be confusing these birds with dove which fly high in the air.

Edw.

[Art]

If the police were called right away and did a thorough investigation, maybe the stories put out by Cheney and his friends would be believable. If you or I had shot someone under the circumstances Cheney did and took off I suspect we would be in jail now.

[Steven L Umbach]

They are way off. In my youth [may moons ago] I did a lot of shotgun hunting. For quail they would have been using at the largest 7 1/2 shot and more likely 8 shot which both are very tiny [much smaller than a BB - 2.41mm for 7 1/2 shot] and lose velocity and energy quickly with probably open cylinder choke for wide spread pattern. Such small shot probably would not even be lethal to the bird after about 25 yards. I also understand he was using a 28 GA shotgun. The report I heard was that the pellets broke his skin. Now this all is not a good thing but shotgun hunting is totally different than rifle hunting [or shotgun with deer slug] where you must be sure where your shot will stop. But you would think he ran his car into water and drowned his hunting partner and did nothing to help the way the press is handing it. --- Steve

--- shot sizes

[gfretwell]

The reports say he was using a 28 ga shotgun loaded wirth #7½ shot (.095" dia). Typically that will be 3/4 oz. At 345 pellets per oz that means about 259 shot were fired.