:On Jul 7, 2:54 pm, Dan Musicant wrote: :> On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net" :>
:> wrote: :>
:> :On Jul 6, 11:46 pm, Dan Musicant wrote: :> :> I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I :> :> told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions: :> :>
:> :> I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific :> :> Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a :> :> state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy :> :> Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because :> :> of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint. :> :>
:> :> He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2 :> :> furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that :> :> discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011). :> : :> : :> :You can go online and find the prices that you could buy the :> :furnaces for. ACwholesalers.com is one site, you can find :> :others. As an example, you'll find that you can buy a :> :Rheem gas furnace that's 45K BTU for $1200 including :> :delivery. That's a 95%, dual stage, variable speed blower, :> :a top of the line unit. :> :And that's YOUR cost for buying one. Presumably :> :a HVAC company can get even better pricing. If you want :> :AC too, that adds a similar amount. Trane eqpt costs a :> :bit more than Rheem, but it sure isn't enough more that :> :they could be giving a true $2K discount on a furnace or :> :it would be free. :> : :> :Also, according to ConsumerReports, Rheem actually :> :got a higher rating than Trane and some of the other :> :companies. I think overall thought CR said that the :> :differences were not statistically significant, so I would :> :not be paying a premium price to get a Trane. :>
:> I talked at length with a friend of mine who's installed two home :> heating systems and his attitude is I should do my homework and figure :> out what I need to do and do it myself, with help where required. He :> said the information I need is mostly stamped right there on the heater. : :Not much of anything is :stamped on a furnace, except the model #, BTU rating, and :efficiency. There are installation instructions availabe and you :can find them online.
Check. My "friend" is given to rants and hyperbole. He's cool, smart, talented, painted houses (mostly interiors, I think) for a living until he made some serious money buying fixing up and selling a house with pretty damn good timing during the early 2000's housing boom. I have to take a lot of things he says with a grain of salt. : :Replacing an existing furnace is something a reasonably skilled :DIY person could do. It consists of swapping out the furnace, :reconnecting gas and electric, venting the furnace which :will be via 2" PVC for a high eff furnace, and doing whatever :sheetmetal work is needed to mate up the :existing duct work with the new furnace. : : However you have no existing duct system :, nor is it clear if you need one furnace, two furnaces, how many :registers, returns, etc. Doing that duct work is not trivial and :without the right tools and skills I'd say it's beyond a DIY. :Exactly how you would engage with a contractor to have you :do part of it is not clear to me. I'd think most of them would :want no part of that kind of deal because of all the potential :problems.
I think I understand. I will probably get at least a handful of bids and go with one. I was pricing ducting at Home Depot today. Looks to me like that would cost me there from $400-$800, but I wouldn't even know what to get, how to install it. I have zero experience in HVAC. : : : :> He installed one in the house he bought, totally fixed up and sold and :> bought a used heater for $500 or so and installed it in a house he's :> partners on and rents. : :Were those new installs that included doing the duct work or :just replacements of the furnace?
The first install was, I think, mostly if not entirely a new install. He said he rand ducts and installed the registers himself, at least some of them. This was a conversation we had last night, I don't remember exactly, but the house was old, just as old as my 101 year old house. I don't know what heating it had before he installed the furnace.
The furnace in the house he co-owns and rents was an insert furnace, that I believe went in what had been a fireplace. The installation probably didn't involve ducting at all. I think they ran a flue up the chimney (?). He said that he and his partner did it in 2 days. : :>
:> I'm going to look into buying online as you suggest. I'm also going to :> get some contractors to come over and figure out systems and get quotes. :> I may go for one of those or maybe work a deal where I do some of the :> work, especially if cutting access and repairing it is part of the :> project. I have most of the tools and some experience. :>
:> : :> : :> : :> : :> : :> :> PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are :> :> for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said :> :> there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case :> :> it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I :> :> paid zero federal taxes. :> :>
:> :> I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the :> :> inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing :> :> else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the :> :> program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee. :> : :> : :> :That sound fishy too. I've never heard of a municipality waving :> :permit fees because of any special program. But a quick :> :call to the building department could verify it. It's Berkely so :> :the fees could be high, but $300 to $500 sounds high to me. :> :Here in NJ you need 3 permits and the cost is around $200. :> : :> : :> : :> : :> :>
:> :> The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest :> :> with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the :> :> end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells :> :> Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year :> :> I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have :> :> a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up. :> :>
:> :> He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my :> :> house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000 :> :> BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers :> :> each. He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no :> :> charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as :> :> required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as :> :> required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it :> :> would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the :> :> center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate :> :> them. :> : :> :That is where a lot of the total cost is, running the required ducting :> :for :> :a new install. The prices you had posted for the complete system, :> :ie $7500 for one furnace, $13,000 for two, actually sounds reasonable. :>
:> This concerns me. I haven't done stuff like that before, running :> ducting, installing registers. Would it be possible for me to pressure :> test it? :> : :> : : :There is no pressure testing involved. : The guy from California Energy Services did say they'd pressure test the system. : : :> : :> :>
:> :> The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know :> :> if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces :> :> are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a :> :> 20x30" hole to get them in. :> : :> :That sounds very low if modifications have to be made to get access :> :to an attic. Also, what kind of access? Something that leaves a :> :permanent access thats larger or just a temporary hole cut in the :> :ceiling and then covered back up? Either way, $200 sounds very :> :low. :>
:> Yes, I could maybe do that myself. Some carpentry, wallboard afterward. :> : :> : :> : :> :>
:> :> Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or :> :> that they really should check out the house more carefully? :> :>
:> :> Dan :> :>
:> :> Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net :> : :> :As I said before, they guy didn't even go into the attic to look :> :before quoting the job and proposing to install a furnace :> :up there. That is shyster. If they do business like that, I :> :don't want to find out what else they would pull in the :> :middle of the job. :>
:> Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over :> here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask :> him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I :> have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the :> utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to :> which he says his company is the exclusive access. :>
:> Dan :>
:> Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net : :I'd be very surprised if the state had a program to assist with the :cost of new furnaces for low income folks and it was only :through one company. Typically the state will provide some of the :funding, but in every case I've heard of it's been open to :all vendors. To do otherwise would be grossly unfair and have :all the other vendors bitching.
I'm going to try to get to the bottom of that. I can call my utility company and ask them for specifics and maybe call the state and find out. Thanks for the help!
Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net