New gas furnace/AC recommendations?

Here's what I'll do.

I'll call your company and ask for a quote for a furnace. You'll send out one of your sales guys (who might also be a tech / installer) and he'll measure and scope out my house and I'll end up getting a quote for

I'll then buy one of those furnaces from an internet retailer, have it delivered, and I'll bring it downstairs to my basement. I'll pay probably about $1250 +/- 250 for the furnace, probably close to half of what's on your quote (assuming you even break out the price of the hardware on your quotes).

I'll then call one of your installers and I'll offer him $750 cash under the table to install the furnace the next weekend (or when-ever it's conveinent for him). I'll get his HVAC license number for the warranty card that came with the furnace, and I'll even fill in your company on the warrany card if there's a line for that, and I'll send in the warranty to the manufacturer for future coverage.

I'll tell your guy that if there's a problem with the furnace in the future, I'll call him and pay him under the table to perform any servicing and warranty repair work, and he'll say that he'll be happy to do it.

I'll probably save $2k after all is said and done.

How does that work for you? I'm sure you won't mind.

But still cheaper than what home-owners see from local HVAC crooks.

Last time I looked, we were in a recession, and nobody's turning away business.

Did the quotes break-out the price for the hardware separately?

I would have thought you could buy all that for closer to $3500 easily.

UPS ground is ridiculously cheap.

If a company like TireRack can sell tires mail-order (where the typical order weighs at least 100 lbs for 4 tires) then I can see how furnaces can be shipped cheap as well.

Oh wait, I forgot.

If I don't buy the furnace from you, you might not get that incentive reward from Goodman or Trane or York. You know, the free trip to Hawaii?

Not every HVAC company or HVAC tech is a crook. The crooks are well known to the repair guys and are hated. The dishonest service people give everyone a bad name and the good honest service techs get very upset when hearing about what one of the crooks pulled off. I spent a couple of hours at a deposition involving a lawsuit against one of the crooks who vandalized the AC belonging to the elderly mother of a friend of mine. Those crooks shorted out her compressor and told her she needed $5,500.00 worth of new system. I wasn't about to let that happen. The crooks called her out of the phone book with a $69.95 spring tuneup special which is something a lot of less than altruistic service companies do to get their foot in the door to take advantage of the less than knowledgeable customers, especially the elderly. You can usually spot the crooks by their shiny new trucks.

TDD

I've seen good prices on compressors but they're very heavy and the cost of shipping made it cost the same or more than what I can get it for at the supply house. The same supply house where I can return a defective unit and get it replaced right now. :-)

TDD

I got a good price on my >600 pound Unisaw a couple of years ago, with cheap shipping too (Amazon Free Super Saver). ...and no sales tax. ;-)

OK - I've got some numbers.

I dug out the handy Amprobe and checked the current draw on my Tempstar ntv6050fb furnace.

On low speed circulate it is drawing .21 amps at 116 volts AC. When it calls for heat and the Eductor fan is on high, and the hot plate ignitor is on, it draws just over 2.2 amps. When the gas lights and the ignitor shuts down, it draws 2.0 amps, and with the furnace running normally, the unit draws all of 1.5 amps. Thats about 175 VA.

Yesterday the furnace ran 6 hours and 17 minutes, and so far today 4 hour and 12 minutes. Yesterday was a pretty cold and windy day. If it runs 6.25 hours a day at 175.3 va, that is just a hair ovr 1kWh per day, and the low speed blower, running the other 17.75 hours at 34 va, consumes another .6 kWh.

IF the furnace cycles 20 times (I have not counted, but I figured I'd guess on the high side) the eductor and ignitor, running aprox 1.5 minute for each cycle, draw another .7 amps,for another 0.3 ah or .035 kWh per day - for a total of something just over 1.6 kWh per day.(48kWh per month) At 7.5 cents per kWh for the first 1000 per month, and 8.5 cents per kWh from there up, over and above the roughly $16 per month "distribution fee" from Waterloo North Hydro, if I didn't use electricity for anything else to spread the distribution fee over, it would cost me about $20 a month to run the furnace. Since I DO use electricity for other things, the incremental cost to run the furnace is only something like $4 per month for the electricity.

A half HP PSC motor, running only with the furnace calling for heat,at

On the other hand, if, as some have theorized, circulating the air looses heat to the outside and/or basement, NOT running the low speed circulating fan would cause the furnace to run less - saving not only the .6kWh, but also some furnace run time.

Anyone with a PSC blower motor on a conventional standing pilot light furnace have an Amprobe and want to check the blower current draw for a sanity check?

I'm just guessing 475 Va running current.

The low speed blower is set at 600 cfm with a .1" static (default) and the heat blower speed is also at default, 0.20" static, with the AC set to 900 cfm at 0.50" static, default for a 2 ton AC according to the installers notes. The default for heat was set by the specified heat rise across the heat exchanger

In my business the hard to get stuff (and stuff I could save a bundle on) is generally small and light making the shipping pretty reasonable unless it comes UPS from the USA - where the brokerage kills ya.

I think HomeGuy wanted an example of an HVAC company denying warranty coverage because eqpt was bought from a non-authorized source? I think this should settle that requestt:

Q: What happens if I purchase Rheem equipment from an online sales company? Answer: Rheem published warranties are not applicable for any equipment manufactured by Rheem that has been sold direct to the consumer via the internet or auction websites without an in-person site visit, inspection, and installation by a qualified, trained HVAC professional"

If that's not enough, here's what Trane's warranty says:

"This limited warranty does not apply if the unit was purchaed direct (ie from internet websites or auctions) on an uninstalled basis."

Perhaps Rheem can explain why they sell their products to internet-based retailers in the first place.

So I called Goodman and I asked how the warranty works when I buy a furnace from an on-line retailer, and they said they don't honor the warrany in those cases - I think it's because they don't want to deal directly with the public - they'd rather deal with dealers when it comes to parts replacement.

Anyone buying a furnace off the net is more likely to try to contact the manufacturer directly vs a local HVAC dealer when fixing their furnace, and probably the first mistake they'll make is to tell the manufacturer where they bought it. That lets the manufacturer weazel out of their warranty obligation by mentioning the (likely illegal) clause about the warranty being voided because of "electronic" sale vs dealer sale.

They acknowledged that unless I tell them I bought it from an internet retailer that they have no way of knowing, and that if I have warranty repairs done by a local contractor that most likely the contractor will have no problems dealing with Goodman as far as the parts go so it won't be a big deal anyways. Even if I installed the furnace myself and a part went bad and I took the part into a local HVAC dealer, I could probably still have the part covered by the warranty and get a replacement from the dealer (assuming the part is still covered under the warranty period).

I asked why they sell their furnaces to electronic / internet retailers in the first place, and they said they have no control over how those furnaces are re-sold, and it might even be "illegal" to refuse to do business with those retailers (restraint-of-trade laws).

Bottom line is that I don't see how it can be legal for a manufacturer to void a warranty on a product based on who sold you the product or how you purchased the product. That would be discrimination against the retailer who lawfully purchased the product from the manufacturer for retail re-sale to an end-customer in a manner that is essentially identical to a local dealer who purchases the produce from a manufacturer for re-sale to an end-customer.

I think a careful re-reading of what I posted previously will show that Goodman and other companies DO infact provide warranty coverage for systems purchased over the internet, and they provide that coverage through the licensed person or company that performed the installation of said system.

Here is part of what I posted previously:

=========================================== If you are a licensed mechanical and HVAC contractor and EPA certified to buy and sell and install HVAC equipment, then you will be responsible for handling warranty claims and the manufacturer is responsible for providing for that warranty provided the guidelines below are met by both the consumer and the dealer/seller.

The manufacturers warranty, like the sale of a car or other product sold by a licensed dealer, is passed through the company or dealer to the consumer regardless of through which means they make their purchase. Consumers who purchase heating and air conditioning through the internet should also receive an additional labor warranty from the licensed professional who performs the installation. Labor warranties on the installation of heating and air conditioning typically are good for 1 year. Consumers can also pay an additional charge to extend the labor warranty beyond 1 year. This is provided by your qualified local licensed installer. These warranty policies are stated as follows: =========================================

Those policies follow below. I just want to interject here and re-state what is mentioned above.

First, HVAC manufacturers do not (as a rule) provide any coverage for the labor component for parts replacement. The consumer is paying for that labor coverage as part of the inflated cost he's paying to the HVAC dealer/installer.

Second, if you have a licensed contractor / installer perform the installation of the unit that you buy from an internet retailer, then you have satisfied the terms of the manufacturer's warranty.

It would probably be useful in these cases to ask your local HVAC installer to quote you for installation of a furnace that you've purchased and delivered to your basement through your own means, and to break out the cost for the labor warranty separately from the installation cost. You may find it cost-effective to forego the installer's labor warranty.

Also, I would stipulate that in any such installation contract, that the contractor agrees to not decline requests to service the unit in the future (with the labor to be paid by the customer if the customer has declined labor coverage) and that the contractor agrees to handle the replacement of broken parts still covered under the manufacturer's warranty - even if the customer removes and replaces those parts himself.

With that said, here are the policy terms continuing from the above quote:

===================================== Air Conditioning and Heating Equipment Warranty Guidelines - Including brands by Goodman, Rheem, Ruud, York, Mitsubishi, or Pridiom heating and air conditioning equipment

All manufacturers warranties on equipment purchased through the World Wide Web will be honored providing you abide by the following guidelines:

1. You must have your system installed by a licensed, EPA certified HVAC-R Contractor. (It is required that your system be checked, started up and signed-off on by a licensed AC & heating contractor prior to use.)
2. You must comply with all federal refrigerant handling laws.
3. Please keep a copy of the installation ticket in a safe place for your records.
4. Please make sure that all your ductwork is properly sized including all supply and return installation work.
5. Comply with all permitting regulations where required.
6. Always conform with applicable local and state codes.
7. Electrical connections should only be made by a licensed electrical contractor.

References:

Gee, I wonder why ? Maybe, as has been said here so many times for so many years, the quality and correctness of the installation is the primary determinant of the lifespan and performance of the equipment ? Far above and beyond any considerations of brand, features, etc ?

A correctly sized and installed ( pick any brand you think sucks ) will far out-perform and out-last an incorrectly sized and poorly installed ( pick any brand you think is great ), that's a fact.

Most brands do, probably including Goodman. They know, by serial number, what units were sold to what dealers or supply houses, on what date, etc.

Bullshit. No, you can not.

Might be.

Add it to the long list of 'things you don't see'.

Any hope of you going away now ? Please ?

Maybe HomeGuy should take this up with the courts. I doubt he will have any success. It's not at all unusual for manufacturer's to require that the product be purchased and installed from an authorized dealer for the warranty to be honored.

I also seriously doubt that there are any restraint in trade issues with a company choosing to not do business with internet companies that can't install the eqpt and instead just sell it to anyone, anywhere For one thing, they would not be saying you can't sell it on the internet. Only that if you do so, you have to be responsible for the whole sale, including installation. That's a simple issue of protecting the company's image, reliability, insuring customer satisfaction, etc. Take a company like Harley. Does anyone think a case could be made that they are restricting trade because they don't allow just anyone to be a dealer? Or that they can legally deny someone the right to just sell the MC on the internet and ship it in a box?

In reality, some of these companies are probably selling the stuff to these online outlets because they are as greedy as the next company, and looking to increase sales. Some of it also could be getting to online shops via intermediaries, ie other wholesalers who are looking to move more product.

Regarding getting the warranty honored anyway, I would not be surprised if it were honored, IF you met all the requirements. I noticed at least on company, Rheem or Trane, maybe both, require the product to be REGISTERED within a couple months of install for the entire warranty to be honored. I'm sure as part of that process, they damn well ask for who supplied it and installed it. Maybe you could fudge and get by that, don't know.

The thing that gets me in all this is that I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable price to get a system installed. But what I'm seeing here in NJ, is that for a 100K BTU furnace and 5 ton AC, the lowest quote I have allows for $4000 installation above what I can buy the eqpt for. I factored in everything I could think of, eg, eqpt, lines, disconnect, whip,

They DO ask that. And require it. Then they track their dealers in re customer complaints, warranty returns / submissions, etc, and they WILL stop doing business with dealers that have high problem rates. Again, to protect their product reputation.

Steve will gladly supply you a 3 page list of things you forgot ;-)

The difference is between 'having a website, with a warehouse someplace and some minimum wage droids driving a forklift', vs 'having a local business, with trained employees, insurance, trucks, tools, stock, advertising, insurance, covering warranties and call-backs, 24 hour / day on-site trained person service, 'standing behind their product and work', etc etc'.

Maybe HomeGuy should take this up with the courts. I doubt he will have any success. It's not at all unusual for manufacturer's to require that the product be purchased and installed from an authorized dealer for the warranty to be honored.

I also seriously doubt that there are any restraint in trade issues with a company choosing to not do business with internet companies that can't install the eqpt and instead just sell it to anyone, anywhere For one thing, they would not be saying you can't sell it on the internet. Only that if you do so, you have to be responsible for the whole sale, including installation. That's a simple issue of protecting the company's image, reliability, insuring customer satisfaction, etc. Take a company like Harley. Does anyone think a case could be made that they are restricting trade because they don't allow just anyone to be a dealer? Or that they can legally deny someone the right to just sell the MC on the internet and ship it in a box?

In reality, some of these companies are probably selling the stuff to these online outlets because they are as greedy as the next company, and looking to increase sales. Some of it also could be getting to online shops via intermediaries, ie other wholesalers who are looking to move more product.

Regarding getting the warranty honored anyway, I would not be surprised if it were honored, IF you met all the requirements. I noticed at least on company, Rheem or Trane, maybe both, require the product to be REGISTERED within a couple months of install for the entire warranty to be honored. I'm sure as part of that process, they damn well ask for who supplied it and installed it. Maybe you could fudge and get by that, don't know.

The thing that gets me in all this is that I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable price to get a system installed. But what I'm seeing here in NJ, is that for a 100K BTU furnace and 5 ton AC, the lowest quote I have allows for $4000 installation above what I can buy the eqpt for. I factored in everything I could think of, eg, eqpt, lines, disconnect, whip,

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In this economy, *EVERYTHING* is high, and there are a hell of a lot more things to be paid for than *JUST* your installers salaries.

for a 5 ton A/C in New Jersey, you got to have one hell of a big house. Here in south Mississippi where we have 9 months of summer(90F+), and brutal humidity levels, I would most likely install 5 tons in around 3500sqft.

From my company, complete installation of an "entry level" 5ton 13SEER A/C, with 100,000btu 80+ AFUE 2stage. variable speed(ECM) gas furnace, you would be looking at $8200 plus sales tax installed. Prices on "Prestige" systems and "Premium" systems are higher. We do everything on flat rate... the price we quote, is the price you pay, and it doesn't matter if it takes 3 minutes, or 3 hours, or 3 days. We do not charge "labor". Our prices are printed in a book, and are not subject to negotiation. We do not "break down" our pricing any more than Walmart does. We *DO NOT* install any parts or equipment that were not purchased through us, strictly because of liability and warranty issues.

Any legitmate company will have the simular policies.

I realize that. And I was never counting installers salaries at all. What I was factoring in was a reasonable labor rate charged to me. The installers are obviously getting a lot less than that. Around here, you go to the major auto dealers for service and they are charging the customer around $100/hr labor rate. That includes the wages, overhead, profit, etc sufficient to run the business.

That's almost exactly what the lowest quote I have here for the Rheem system is. So, here's my issue. When I account for all the materials, I can buy them for about $4200. That's shipped here and me buying qty one. That leaves $4,000 to cover the labor of install. Allowing $100/hr for labor, (note that includes overhead, profit, etc and is not the what the installers are paid), and allowing a day and a half for 2 guys to install it, which I think is generous, that would be $2400, not $4000.

When you take your car in for service to a dealer around here, it's generally right around $100 an hour for labor. Given the job and skill set, and comparing it to an auto dealer rate, I don't think factoring in $100 an hour per man labor rate is unreasonable. And I would think that an HVAC contractor is probably getting a better price on the eqpt than I can. Maybe I'.m missing something here, but I don't know what it is.

The contractors here, like most, are willing to negotiate.

So, a legitimate company won't negotiate? Seems rather odd given the state of the economy. With new construction in the tank, I'm really surprised that these guys aren't negotiating even more.

I realize that. And I was never counting installers salaries at all. What I was factoring in was a reasonable labor rate charged to me. The installers are obviously getting a lot less than that. Around here, you go to the major auto dealers for service and they are charging the customer around $100/hr labor rate. That includes the wages, overhead, profit, etc sufficient to run the business.

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A certified Master HVAC Tech is not an auto mechanic, A certified Master Tech is a highly skilled, and highly trained specialist. Personally I do 5 -

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It depends on a whole lot of factors.... first you need a complete room-by-room Manual J heat load/loss calculation done. That will tell you exactly how many BTUs you need to heat and to cool your home, and if you even need a 5 ton A/C.

That's almost exactly what the lowest quote I have here for the Rheem system is. So, here's my issue. When I account for all the materials, I can buy them for about $4200. That's shipped here and me buying qty one. That leaves $4,000 to cover the labor of install. Allowing $100/hr for labor, (note that includes overhead, profit, etc and is not the what the installers are paid), and allowing a day and a half for 2 guys to install it, which I think is generous, that would be $2400, not $4000.

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Maybe you should give classes on how HVAC contractors can go broke in 6 months or less.

When you take your car in for service to a dealer around here, it's generally right around $100 an hour for labor. Given the job and skill set, and comparing it to an auto dealer rate, I don't think factoring in $100 an hour per man labor rate is unreasonable. And I would think that an HVAC contractor is probably getting a better price on the eqpt than I can. Maybe I'.m missing something here, but I don't know what it is.

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What your missing is the business of running a business, as well as the simple fact that a Master HVAC Tech is not an auto mechanic, and the HVAC tech is bringing his "shop" to the customer in the form of a service truck.

The contractors here, like most, are willing to negotiate.

They are "negotiating" just for the work, and don't care if they make enough to pay the bills, salaries, or taxes.

So, a legitimate company won't negotiate? Seems rather odd given the state of the economy. With new construction in the tank, I'm really surprised that these guys aren't negotiating even more.

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I don't do new construction because I can make more money sitting in my recliner. I will not work at a loss. I would rather not work at all if I can't at least break even. As far as the economy, I have had a record year.

I fired a customer because he asked if I worked on the side.... I told him that I am the company owner, and that I am not going to STEAL from my own company, and I would fire any employee that did any HVAC work on the side.