New asphalt shingle roof - some nails showing

[Dan_Musicant]

They just finished my roof job, complete tearoff to skip sheathing and installation of 50 year architectural asphalt composition shingles. Mostly they seem to have done good work, but on the rather big north dormer they got sloppy when nailing on the shingles and I saw many nail heads, maybe 20 just looking around. I told the project manager about this and he said they'd replace those shingles. Yesterday, the crew chief came back with one other guy and replaced a bunch of the shingles. I went up their after they left and still see quite a few nails, at least 1/2 a dozen, and I didn't look very carefully. I believe these are

1.25" galvanized roofing nails and they put them in with a neumatic nailer. Should I call them back? Should I just cover them with some butyl rubber caulk (I have a tube) or a spot of black roofing cement (I have a couple of gallons left)? I got a can of matching spray paint from them, and I could squirt a shot of it on the nail heads or caulk/cement to hide them and for whatever protection it's worth. Thanks.

Dan

[Harry K]

There should be absolutely no nails showing except for the last shingle on the ridges. Call them back and don't pay them until the job satifies you. If they did a screw-up that big I would examine the roof with a fine tooth comb for other idiotic errors.

Do not cover them up with anything. You have a ruined roof, you have or will be paying for a 30 year roof, not somethign that is going to leak.

Harry K

[Norminn]

I would not touch the roof. Take photographs of the entire mess. Write a business-like letter, clearly stating the issues and send it to the contractor by certified mail. If you have not paid entire cost, do not make payment until the issues are corrected. If he is not out to personally direct correction of the installation, get your attorney involved and discuss complaint to the licensing agency. Did you hire a licensed contractor? Get a written bid?

[Goedjn]

Doesn't matter. If you put asphalt over skip sheathing, it's going blow apart in less than 10 years, anyway.

[Dan_Musicant]

: :>They just finished my roof job, complete tearoff to skip sheathing and :>installation of 50 year architectural asphalt composition shingles. :>Mostly they seem to have done good work, but on the rather big north :>dormer they got sloppy when nailing on the shingles and I saw many nail :>heads, maybe 20 just looking around. I told the project manager about :>this and he said they'd replace those shingles. Yesterday, the crew :>chief came back with one other guy and replaced a bunch of the shingles. :>I went up their after they left and still see quite a few nails, at :>least 1/2 a dozen, and I didn't look very carefully. I believe these are :>1.25" galvanized roofing nails and they put them in with a neumatic :>nailer. Should I call them back? Should I just cover them with some :>butyl rubber caulk (I have a tube) or a spot of black roofing cement (I :>have a couple of gallons left)? I got a can of matching spray paint from :>them, and I could squirt a shot of it on the nail heads or caulk/cement :>to hide them and for whatever protection it's worth. Thanks. : : :Doesn't matter. If you put asphalt over skip sheathing, it's going :blow apart in less than 10 years, anyway.

No, no I didn't go into all the details. They covered the skip sheathing with 1/2" CDX plywood, then 30 lb. felt, then the shingles.

[Dan_Musicant]

: :Dan_Musicant wrote: :> They just finished my roof job, complete tearoff to skip sheathing and :> installation of 50 year architectural asphalt composition shingles. :> Mostly they seem to have done good work, but on the rather big north :> dormer they got sloppy when nailing on the shingles and I saw many nail :> heads, maybe 20 just looking around. I told the project manager about :> this and he said they'd replace those shingles. Yesterday, the crew :> chief came back with one other guy and replaced a bunch of the shingles. :> I went up their after they left and still see quite a few nails, at :> least 1/2 a dozen, and I didn't look very carefully. I believe these are :> 1.25" galvanized roofing nails and they put them in with a neumatic :> nailer. Should I call them back? Should I just cover them with some :> butyl rubber caulk (I have a tube) or a spot of black roofing cement (I :> have a couple of gallons left)? I got a can of matching spray paint from :> them, and I could squirt a shot of it on the nail heads or caulk/cement :> to hide them and for whatever protection it's worth. Thanks. :>

:> Dan : :There should be absolutely no nails showing except for the last shingle :on the ridges. Call them back and don't pay them until the job :satifies you. If they did a screw-up that big I would examine the roof :with a fine tooth comb for other idiotic errors. : :Do not cover them up with anything. You have a ruined roof, you have :or will be paying for a 30 year roof, not somethign that is going to :leak. : :Harry K

I went up there and I think there must be 15, maybe more nails I can see. If I can see the nail head under the above lapping shingle (without touching anything) is that too much exposure? I figure water will get up under that nail head if I can see it. I haven't called the roofer a second time yet on this one. They sent a couple of guys out yesterday to "replace" the shingles with exposed nails, but they certainly weren't very circumspect - they didn't look around and make sure they'd gotten them all, that's for sure! I asked the project manager if they'd done everything and he asked me if I wanted to go up and check and I said "no." Surely, he realized I'd check later. I had a lot of faith in those guys but now I'm thinking it was maybe no warranted.

How serious is this situation? It's not just a 30 year roof, they put on

50 year shingles.

:"If they did a screw-up that big I would examine the roof :with a fine tooth comb for other idiotic errors."

What kinds of errors can I check for?

How can they fix the errors? Do they have to tear off all those shingles and put on all new shingles? Or are there ways they can replace only the shingles affected? How can I be sure they aren't trying to reuse shingles?

Right now, before I call them back I'm systematically going over the whole roof and putting a piece of masking tape just above any nail head I can see.

Thanks for the help!

Dan

[Michael Daly]

I hate to say it, but this sounds really bad (DAMHIKT). They obviously don't give a damn about their work (neither the workers nor the company). Better put your lawyer on speed dial just in case.

I wish that there was a mechanism for putting companies like this out of business for good. There's no excuse for shoddy work.

Mike

[m Ransley]

You can still pull a permit and ask for an immediate inspection, this is always a good idea anyway as the inspection is paid for, and will find any more mistakes the Hack Boys did before it is to late to be fixed.

Don`t pay in full till you get the inspection and everything is fixed.

Photograph everything now.

Let the roofer know what you are doing and when you will pay. With a few obvious mistakes you may have hidden ones , like the wrong felt , poorly done chimney flashing or rotted wood left in place.

Take your time to go over their work completely before you pay.

I have pulled late permits several times on situations like this and got an inspection that helped resolve the issues.

[Doug Kanter]

Even more to the point, there's no excuse for jobs like that being done by people who CAN'T READ! Instructions and diagrams are on each package of shingles.

[Dan_Musicant]

: You can still pull a permit and ask for an immediate inspection, this :is always a good idea anyway as the inspection is paid for, and will :find any more mistakes the Hack Boys did before it is to late to be :fixed.

The city inspector came out a day or so after the job was completed and just like the project manager had predicted told me that ordinarily they get up on the roof with a ladder but my roof was too steep for him to risk it - which is kind of ridiculous, actually. You can walk everywhere on the roof without holding onto anything, although I prefer to hang onto the gable rafters on the steepest parts. So, I guess the city permit inspectors are pretty much a joke here (Berkeley, CA). Is there some other way I can get it inspected? Can I insist that the city inspect it properly? : : Don`t pay in full till you get the inspection and everything is fixed. : : Photograph everything now.

All 70 exposed nail heads? That would be tough and it would be tough to indentify exactly where each nail is. I took a lot of photos that show where a lot of the pieces of masking tape are that I put over each nail head I could see, but it doesn't show all of them, just mainly the isolated ones. In a photo (with my digicam) I have to pull back far enough where you have something in the background so you know where you are. If you get up closer, it's just some patch of roof. There's a patch of roof around 20' x 20' that's got around 50 pieces of tape on it! I think they may have to totally redo that part - pull all those shingles and discard them. I figure I can go back and inspect the entire roof again later and see if anything was missed. : : Let the roofer know what you are doing and when you will pay. With a :few obvious mistakes you may have hidden ones , like the wrong felt , :poorly done chimney flashing or rotted wood left in place.

I haven't paid the roofer yet. : : Take your time to go over their work completely before you pay. : : I have pulled late permits several times on situations like this and :got an inspection that helped resolve the issues.

I wonder if the county might send someone out, someone capable. It seems like the city inspectors are probably older guys who want a cushy job and nothing more, at least judging by that one guy who came by a few days ago.

I'm wondering if I can get a pro who knows what's what do an inspection. I don't know how to go about finding one, though.

[Doug Kanter]

If you stand back far enough, can you see any of the trouble spots from ground level? Is yes, call a gun shop and ask if a SPOTTING SCOPE will allow you to see the nail heads from that distance. Normally, these are used by marksman who need to see where their shots landed, from pretty long distances. Maybe you can find a cheap scope that'll do the trick. Get the city inspector back, stick the scope on a tripod, and sit him in a chair until he sees reality.

[Duane Bozarth]

OP might also check w/ manufacturer and distributor to see if can get rep to comment on installation regarding them standing by the manufacturer's warranty.

What do the installation instructions say specifically regarding installation and warranty? Send a request to them for clarification of their position as backup documentation.

[Duane Bozarth]

Maybe that's the problem w/ the nailing...if they didn't fill in the open spaces in the former open decking they may not have had anything but the sheathing to nail to for some courses....which will leave any that are only nailed to 1/2" sheathing w/ not a whole lot of material to keep them there...

My inexperience w/ solid decked roofs and composition shingles shows here...is 1/2" sheathing alone considered enough? (I've only had one house that had comp shingles and never had to do anything w/ the roof -- everything else I have experience w/ is open decking w/ wood shingle/shakes.)

[Dan_Musicant]

:> No, no I didn't go into all the details. They covered the skip sheathing :> with 1/2" CDX plywood, then 30 lb. felt, then the shingles. : :Maybe that's the problem w/ the nailing...if they didn't fill in the :open spaces in the former open decking they may not have had anything :but the sheathing to nail to for some courses....which will leave any :that are only nailed to 1/2" sheathing w/ not a whole lot of material to :keep them there... : :My inexperience w/ solid decked roofs and composition shingles shows :here...is 1/2" sheathing alone considered enough? (I've only had one :house that had comp shingles and never had to do anything w/ the roof -- :everything else I have experience w/ is open decking w/ wood :shingle/shakes.)

I believe that 1/2" CDX plywood is code. The estimator told me that it is ample and code even with my skip sheathing, which is approximately

1x5 long boards nailed perpendicularly to the 32" on center rafters and with on average about 5 inches space between the skip sheathing boards. In at least two places a coupld of the skip sheathing boards are actually touching, leaving more than a foot between two adjacent boards. They could (and I thought probably should) have repositioned those boards before nailing on the CDX plywood, but by the time I'd noticed it it was too late. Presumably, the 1.25" roofing nails through the 1/2" CDX is sufficient.

[ameijers]

Forget the city inspector- pay a couple hundred to a licensed inspector, or engineer if available, for a signed inspection of the entire roof system. Send a copy to the roofing company with a letter saying you ain't paying until they fix (or rework) the flaws addressed in the inspection. Tell the the roofing company that if they don't care to make good on the work they promised in the contract, the next letter will be from your attorney.

aem sends...

[Duane Bozarth]

If the nail is long enough to penetrate the nailing surface by 1/4" or so, any longer will make no difference whatsoever.

32" rafter spacing? That must be pretty springy to walk on...

[Wayne Whitney]

Well, all the instructions from shingle manufacturers I've read say: nails embedded 3/4" in substrate OR all the way through the decking.

Yes, that was standard practice in 1908, my house has the same thing,

2x4 rafters on 32" spacing. The pitch is 8"12, so mostly I try not to walk on it.

Cheers, Wayne

[Duane Bozarth]

Precisely...OP's question was about whether a longer nail would be better w/ 1/2" sheathing---answer was "no, not if it penetrates, longer doesn't matter"...

Guess they got enlightened by 1914 then...house rafters are on 16" spacings, same as wall studs.... :) That's about the house roof pitch--it's actually not an even value--more like 7:12...can stay on it but is a little iffy on second story...

The barn is on 24", also same as wall studs, but they're 2x6 instead of

2x4. Upper for it is 6:12, lower is 12:12. Don't walk on it... :) Of course, at >40 ft off the ground at ridge, didn't do a lot of open walking on the upper portion either once got the shingles back on. One real advantage of open-decking is that one can clamber around pretty nicely while it's open.

The 40 ft boom lift was worth its weight in oil during the reroofing...we hung a 16-ft long "L" of 2x8's on the front of the basket, then just landed it on the roof. Gave us a great working platform w/o having to tote or carry walkboards....

[Wayne Whitney]

Ah, when you wrote "penetrates by a 1/4 inch", you meant goes all the way through the sheathing and a 1/4 inch farther. I read "goes 1/4 inch into the sheathing", which isn't enough.

Cheers, Wayne

[Dan_Musicant]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:32:57 -0600, Duane Bozarth wrote:

:Dan_Musicant wrote: :> :> On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 09:57:28 -0600, Duane Bozarth :> wrote: :> :> :> No, no I didn't go into all the details. They covered the skip sheathing :> :> with 1/2" CDX plywood, then 30 lb. felt, then the shingles. :> : :> :Maybe that's the problem w/ the nailing...if they didn't fill in the :> :open spaces in the former open decking they may not have had anything :> :but the sheathing to nail to for some courses....which will leave any :> :that are only nailed to 1/2" sheathing w/ not a whole lot of material to :> :keep them there... :> : :> :My inexperience w/ solid decked roofs and composition shingles shows :> :here...is 1/2" sheathing alone considered enough? (I've only had one :> :house that had comp shingles and never had to do anything w/ the roof -- :> :everything else I have experience w/ is open decking w/ wood :> :shingle/shakes.) :> :> I believe that 1/2" CDX plywood is code. The estimator told me that it :> is ample and code even with my skip sheathing, which is approximately :> 1x5 long boards nailed perpendicularly to the 32" on center rafters and :> with on average about 5 inches space between the skip sheathing boards. :> In at least two places a coupld of the skip sheathing boards are :> actually touching, leaving more than a foot between two adjacent boards. :> They could (and I thought probably should) have repositioned those :> boards before nailing on the CDX plywood, but by the time I'd noticed it :> it was too late. Presumably, the 1.25" roofing nails through the 1/2" :> CDX is sufficient. : :If the nail is long enough to penetrate the nailing surface by 1/4" or :so, any longer will make no difference whatsoever. : :32" rafter spacing? That must be pretty springy to walk on...

Yes, it's pretty springy. In some places it's a lot more springy than others. It's kinda weird. It didn't feel near as springy to me before. Before it had asphalt shingles over wood shingles, which were nailed to the skip sheathing. I don't know how many layers of asphalt shingles were on there. Funny thing is, there are a lot of nail heads sticking out of the bottom ofa lot of the skip sheathing boards. The skip sheathing is 1x5 inches and around 20 feet long. The house has two large dormers, and on the north dormer (which has the lesser slope) there are hundreds and hundreds of those nail heads sticking out about 1/4" from the bottom. That makes me imagine that they did a tear off at some point, probably of wood shingles and instead of pulling out or pounding down all the nail heads, they pulled up the skip sheathing and turned it upside down. Those nails are steel and are 1 3/16 inch.

I was thinking of adding some rafters to make them 16" on center, but didn't. It would have been tough getting them cut right and getting them in there and I wasn't sure about the installation technique.