Low flush toilets and your sewer line

Ed Pawlowski: "1.0 urine"
OH! You refer to those newer models with the nested flush buttons(urine vs solid).
Yeah, those are cool. But 10 gallons? Trying to flush Godzilla's poop? lololol
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On 7/9/17 5:05 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

When it's time to replace my toilet, I'm gonna get a pressure tank design. Regular "traditional" toilets just won't do it for me, any more... ;)
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On 7/9/2017 11:33 PM, John Albert wrote:

Don't do what? Clear the toilet or clear the line? Today's toilets do an excellent job of flushing the bowl. At home we have two Kolhers, where I worked we had four more. None ever missed. Some of the original designs were nasty but plenty of good ones now. .
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On 7/9/2017 4:53 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Mine are maybe more recent manufacture recommended and installed by my plumber. None are a problem and less water is better for keeping septic drain field dried.
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+1, you are absolutely correct!
As for double flushing, unless these guys are disposing of elephant manure down their toilets, this is ridiculous advice. People use far more water in their houses than just the toilet. Hopefully they shower, wash their hands, wash dishes, etc.
If for some ridiculous reason they are concerned about the toilet not providing enough water to get the solid waste out to the sewer line or septic tank, they need to consider the other water use on the property and the fact that having some solid waste in the sewer lateral line is almost unavoidable and completely normal.
Now, if they only evacuate their bowels once a month and use no other water and if their feces has the chemical composition of mortar or Roman concrete, then they might have an issue. However, if any of that is the case, their sewer lateral is the last thing they should be worrying about.
The first low flow toilet I installed was in the head out in the barn, it was an inexpensive American Standard toilet and it worked better than any other toilet on the property. I then went ahead and replaced the other seven toilets on the property with esthetically nicer looking American Standard units and they all work great and have, for the past decade, since being installed.
No one should let the BS about "not using enough water", influence their switching over.
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Stormin' Norman:
I'm not convinced. Use enough water in the first place, and you will conserve in the long run. Or, install combo high-low volume flushers, with a button for liquid waste and one for solid.
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On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 16:10:05 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Apparently, the old aphorism about leading a horse to water is still relevant in the 21st century.
Now, if you could actually provide some empirical evidence to substantiate your doubts.......
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On 7/9/2017 7:24 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Sam from Service Plus did. He works with this every day. Please list your experience.
Meantime, take a look at this http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Low-flow-toilets-cause-a-stink-in-SF-2457645.php San Francisco's big push for low-flow toilets has turned into a multimillion-dollar plumbing stink. Skimping on toilet water has resulted in more sludge backing up inside the sewer pipes, said Tyrone Jue, spokesman for the city Public Utilities Commission. That has created a rotten-egg stench near AT&T Park and elsewhere, especially during the dry summer months. The city has already spent $100 million over the past five years to upgrade its sewer system and sewage plants, in part to combat the odor problem. Now officials are stocking up on a $14 million, three-year supply of highly concentrated sodium hypochlorite - better known as bleach - to act as an odor eater and to disinfect the city's treated water before it's dumped into the bay. It will also be used to sanitize drinking water. That translates into 8.5 million pounds of bleach either being poured down city drains or into the drinking water supply every year.
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On 7/9/2017 6:49 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:

stuff snipped.

Oh Norman, what is your experience with these matters? The information I gave here came from a tradesman that has been specializing in sewer lines for 30 years. Are you saying his real life every day experience is BS? Do you know that every house is the USA will work properly with minimal flush water?
Clog from roots aside, they work well in my house but I relayed the information that came from a gut that specializes in sewers. My guess is that he has seen and experienced more than you. He sees four or five hsoues a day. How about you? Please explain.
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Ed, I will not be baited into a fight with you.
That said, let's look at this logically.
On my property, the toilet which is closest to the city sewer line in the street is about 225 - 245 feet away. All the toilets on the property are low-flo (that is the only kind sold in California), they all use between 1.28 - 1.6 gallons. The lateral line to the street is made of plastic and is sloped at approximately 1/2" per foot and the city pipe is about 10 feet deep.
Even with 5 gallons per flush, there is no way the solid waste is going to make it from the toilet to the city sewer without additional water, and that is the point. The toilet's job is to evacuate the waste into the waste line and then to the lateral.
The waste makes its way out to the street by the virtue of the other water which is used on the property; showers, baths, dish washing, hand washing, shaving, etc.
As I stated previously, I have about 8 low-flo toilets on the property and they have been installed for at least ten years. I have never had a clog in the main line since I removed the cast iron, which had been damaged by roots, replaced with plastic and installed low-flo toilets.
If people are getting clogs in their lateral line and the clog is not due to roots, corrosion or other foreign items (toys, stuffed animals, etc), the issue isn't being caused by low-flo toilets but rather by improper installation of the lateral, offsets in the lateral caused by shifting soil (also improper installation), or by lack of normal residential water use.
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On 7/10/2017 2:02 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Baited? Don't make an ass of yourself, I've never baited anyone into an argument. If you think I'm baiting you just put me in your kill file.

Did I say different? The toilet is not the cause, lack of water is, no matter the source. The problem may be caused by may other matters such as the cast iron you had, but more water helps. Maybe you take longer showers to make up for flushing. Your situation is not the same as every other sewer in the country. If you'd like, I'll give you Sam's phone number and you can tell him how your one property experience proves his observations of thousands of sewer situations over 30 years to be wrong.
One way or another, you need X amount of water to move the poop. I think we both said that.
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Ed, Ed, Ed, I am not sure why you are taking such a confrontational posture. I do believe you are scrapping for a fight and no, I will not kill file you and no, I will not satisfy your desire for a fight.

First you say lack of water is the cause, then you say the problem may be caused by other things......

Sure, give me Sam's phone number.... ;-) Ed, seriously?
You can believe whatever you wish, but, all things being equal and installed correctly, low-flo toilets will not be the cause of clogs in the lateral, period. If the plumbing is damaged, contains foreign objects, is corroded, not installed correctly, etc, then that would be the problem, not the toilet. Yes, in a someway defective sewer system, adding more water may compensate, but the defect is the problem, not the low-flo toilet.

No, I implied the waste movement, in a properly designed system requires a certain amount of water to move out to the street. In an improperly designed or defective system with similar characteristics, it will either clog or require much more water to do the same thing. Either way, it is not the toilet.
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On 7/10/2017 3:50 PM, Stormin' Norman wrote:

I have no desire for a fight except in your twisted mind.

Yes, there can be many sewer problems and enough water takes care of many of them. Minimal water may not overcome a defect, say a slipped joint leaving a bump to go over.
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Do you have reading comprehension problems? The lack of water in some systems is the problem. The toilet works just fine, but having 1.2 gallons instead of the former 5 gallons is what shows up the problem. San Francisco is having a lot of problems from the lack of sufficient water flow because there are so many low flow toilets.
If the plumbing is damaged, contains foreign

WTF do you think I've been saying?

Wow, I don't know what to say. For Christmas I'll get you Roget's Thesaurus. Comes with an instruction manual.
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Of course, I am sure you must be correct...... ;-)
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On 7/10/2017 2:02 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Weeellllll , out here in the weeds the only thing that is plumbed into the septic tank is the toilets- gray water is going to a leach field . All PVC , all sloped between 1/8" and 1/4" per foot , and we very seldom have problems . In fact we seldom flush just pee , usually wait for solid waste unless there's a lot of TP in the bowl . Of course the main toilet is an older one we got used ... probably around 2.5 gpf with the water level set a little low as I have it . Just installed a low flow unit in the new master bath , we'll see how that one goes .
--
Snag
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In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 9 Jul 2017 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

For the record, even if it were to be agreed that they are a bad idea, that doesn't make them a scam. They are meant to save water, and they do most of the time. That there can be problems doesn't change that. No one is being tricked or cheated, which are the requisites for a scam.
I suspect that you don't live in California and that you're not in charge of making sure your town has adequate water to meet demand.

None of this makes them a scam, either.
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On 7/8/2017 6:58 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

What I did, when I move into this cash as is (or was) house... the sewer line was bad when I moved in. I dug up about 15 feet of it, easy digging it was only a couple of feet deep, it was the clay stuff, 2 foot joints and it had dropped where there was probably an old cistern and there were root masses at the joints. I pulled out the 15 feet... yeah, must have been either 14 or 16 feet of it (two foot joints) ... and got some three inch PVC sewer line... cut the end of one to an angle and marked the other end so I'd know which way to keep the bevel down and shoved it into the old line, then another joint marked again... then another and another till it finally hit the sudden drop out at the alley then the other way to the house and hooked it up there, back filled around it with sand till it covered the pipe. I could hear it crunch through the root masses at each joint. That was 30 years ago and it's still working. Really, all you have to know is shit runs down hill, the boss is a SOB, and payday is Friday at 5. Now about human excrement and crappers... all turds are not created equally, I suggest a high fiber diet making soft stools and a old fashioned big tank toilet.
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Basically what I've picked up from this thread is that even if low-volume toilets have improved to the point where double-flushing is rarely needed, there are long-term consequences where sewers are concerned.
That alone is enough reason for me to want to go back to a good ol fashioned three-gallon Johnny, or at least try those new lo-hi dual mode flushers.
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On 7/11/2017 2:56 AM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Where can you still buy one of the old fashioned three gallon toilets? I thought they were illegal, but I suppose you could find one at a retro or antique store, or even a junk yard.
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Wayne Boatwright wrote: "Where can you still buy one of the old fashioned three gallon toilets? I thought they were illegal, but I suppose you could find one at a retro "
I suppose. And the only reason they're 'illegal' is because in the long-term, people: LONG-TERM, they actually save water and keep things flowing below ground, either into the sewer or a septic system.
I believe that strictly low-flush toilets were mandated to INCREASE water consumption, via double-flushing, and to make money for both their manufacturers and for the water utilities. Same reason the energy utilities love 'Daylight Saving' Time.
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