Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?

Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker.

Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed?

TIA,

Reply to
Robert Green
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Depends on the inspector. They certainly can tag it if they want to. What is the scope of the permit you have?

Reply to
gfretwell

Who said I had a permit? (-: We don't need no stinkin' permits.

This is concerning possibly changing the current setup. I had extensive discussions about the potential hazards of using a non-listed device with its creator who assured me that the enclosure he selected would contain any mayhem. To avoid inspection hassles, I ended up wiring the device through a

240VAC outlet that I installed (that did pass inspection after I corrected a nicked wire around a screw terminal). The inspector never questioned the repeater/coupler because he never saw it.

Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like to find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed and what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much harder to hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10 users have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what X-10 is nor do they want to know.

Reply to
Robert Green

If you don't have an open permit, how is the AHJ going to know you have this thing and if you do get a permit later, this will be "existing" and if it is not in the scope of the new permit, they still will not say anything most of the time..

Reply to
gfretwell

Looks like you're going to use one the Jeff Volp XTB repeaters, right? I've been looking to get one for some time. I'm using the regular X10 repeater (XPCR) now and, in this location, it seems to work ok ... although it has had some issues. AT Christmas, when I use many modules, I had, just for one evening, a situation where my 1132CU was picking up constant 'noise' and blinking its light. I suspect that the XPCR was sending out some random stuff, but really don't know. I saw this in my more suburban house a few years ago and in fact, couldn't use the XPCR at all. It generated so much noise, it would block or generate its own X10 signals. Here in a more rural setting, it seems to work ok. The XTB unit is not UL approved, unfortunately ... especially, if you opt to save a few $$$ and buy it in kit form. But, the reviews seem to say it's the best unit out there for x10 repeating. BTW, I know it's wrong, but I have my present XPCR hidden inside the breaker box, so it's not easy to see the LEDs on it, but keeps it from being easily seen.

Reply to
Art Todesco

Yes, I actually have a few because I was one of his beta testers from the very get-go and ended up with every piece of equipment he ever designed.

I have that unit - a lot cheaper than the XTB-II but you really get what you pay for. The problem with the XPCR is that it doesn't substantially boost the signal. The XTB-II can detect very weak X-10 signals smaller than 100mv and boosts them to around 25 volts. That's why very little on the market compares, performance-wise.

Jeff's also worked very hard on perfecting the firmware which means accounting for the many devices that *almost* follow the X-10 protocol. IIRC, the biggest issue is that some device makers put the X-10 signal out at the wrong place on AC cycle - slightly before or after the location specified by the protocol and that has some pretty serious repercussions in trying to design a repeater. Creating something like an X-10 repeater that has to deal with devices from dozens of different manufacturers (some of them extinct!) is quite a challenge.

I had a Leviton repeater that would go into a "babel" mode when you hit it with just the right command (dimming, IIRC - that's hard for a repeater to handle because of the open-ended nature of such commands). The unit would start sending out fragments of legit X-10 commands (one reason a meter is now a necessity) in an endless cascade. That meant *nothing* in the house worked because the powerline was taken over by a strong, thoroughly corrupted string of signals.

I am ashamed to say that first unit (the Leviton) was installed in the panel, temporarily, with jumper cables. EEEK! (-: It didn't stay there long because of all the trouble it caused. I was about to trash my X-10 setup. I posted a note in CHA about the repeater problems and Jeff contacted me about testing his new repeater. The rest, as they say, is history.

I also had a bad CM11A that would start spewing commands endlessly when it overheated. They apparently had made a big batch of bad units. The CM11A was also known to "speak in tongues" if you made a mistake and left the RS-232 programming cable attached to the CM11A but not the PC.

The XPCR is OK as a repeater/coupler in simple setups but it lacks it the incredible power of the XTB-II. It's also missing some very nice features like a digital input port so you can plug devices like HomeVision or Ocelot controllers directly into the repeater without needing an intermediate device like a TW523.

In my house, with the plethora of plug in equipment like switched power supplies and UPSs (a known X-10 killer) there's just no operating X-10 without the XTB. A while back when I was working on the circuit panel I disabled the XTB and it became immediately apparent how much the successful functioning of X-10 now depends on having a powerful coupler/repeater.

I only bought the assembled versions because I've never seen anyone solder as cleanly or professionally as Jeff. I also think it's important to support small businesses like his. Very few people are making things in the USA anymore. There's also the small matter of my absymal soldering skills.

We had extensive discussions about getting a UL listing and it's just not justifiable at his sales volume. Install a 240VAC outlet near the circuit box (you can use an existing dryer hookup but the closer to the panel, the stronger the signal). Then you don't have to worry too much about the inspector.

If you install the XTB-II in a separate metal box it's not very likely that even a catastrophic failure would do more than melt the components. The unit is internally fused and installed on a dual breaker that trips both phase connections if either one causes a trip. Not sure what the right word for such physically linked breakers is . . . (senior moment)

I agree wholeheartedly and I have tried most of them. I have repeater/couplers from X-10, ACT, Leviton and more. They are junior leaguers compared to the XTB line. His XTBM line of meters is also unmatched for the price. The higher priced one has a built in repeater check function that tests the repeater function every time the meter is plugged in. Jeff's one of the most detail-oriented people I know. If for any reason you had a problem with one of his units, I am sure he would work very hard to resolve it. I can't recommend his stuff highly enough. Just look at the pictures of assembled products and you'll see the attention to detail I am talking about.

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And you're worried about the XTB's NOT being UL listed?!!! You bad dog, Art!!!! (-:

Reply to
Robert Green

No, I'm not worried about the UL thing. I've seen many UL devices burst into flames. And, I have some home made stuff which is certainly not UL ... maybe the individual part are, but not the whole thing. My plan for the XTB would be to install it in a box next to the panel.

Reply to
Art Todesco

It sounds like a safe plan to me. As long as it is behind a suitable breaker you might see some smoke but the fire should be safely inside the box and the breaker should stop it. That is all we expect from any electrical equipment.

If it is not within the scope of a permit, I doubt an inspector would even give it a glance. They don't just come in and demand to see your stuff.

Reply to
gfretwell

panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker . Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G.

I would be most concerned about my insurance policy and what it says, if an ything, about connecting Non-UL stuff to my powerlines. If there was a fire , somehow related to an X10 individual controller, or worse still to the ma in X10 controller/extender, I think the insurance company could give you a pretty hard time on any claims.

Reply to
hrhofmann

The NSA will tell them. Or Yahoo will hijack my webcam and show them.

It would be my luck that they took pictures or good notes. I know, arf arf.

Thanks, I'm not as worried as I was.

Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that?

Reply to
Robert Green

Not *too* many, I hope. (-:

Who among the home automators out there doesn't? NOW I remember why I have been reluctant to schedule an inspection. I had installed Hall-effect sensors on the incoming mains to monitor power usage in real time. I am pretty sure they'll never pass inspection. But they are quite useful since they forced new remote-readable power meters on us without a spinning disk or any other way to monitor real time usage. )-:

The plastic box the XTB-II comes will melt but shouldn't burn. Stuff that into a metal panel box and I can't see that it could cause much damage. Wiring up a 240 outlet right near the circuit panel and using a 240VAC plug to connect the device is a good alternative, though. I did that at the start for several reasons - I was comparing the XTB-II to the XPCR and the ACT units so I mounted all of them on 240VAC twist lock plugs so I could switch them out for test purposes. If you have an existing dryer outlet, you could install it there. The length of wire back to the panel will attenuate the signal a little, but not much.

I want to use the XTB-II outlet for a welder now, so I am looking to permanently mount the XTB-II because there's not much reason to have it connected to the outlet anymore. It's proved quite reliable and I learned what I needed to know from the testing - the other devices can't hold a candle to the XTB-II because of the 25V signal it puts out compared to 5 to

9 volts for the other units.

Good luck, Art.

Reply to
Robert Green

panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker. Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G.

An interesting point. Not sure if it's true (I'll look later) but some sites claim that the new smart meters aren't UL listed. I will take a look at my policy just to be sure. Thanks.

Reply to
Robert Green

My A/C installer called a licensed electrician who got a permit. Was inspected. Failed because the breaker they installed did not have the correct sticker on it. Breaker had to be replaced. Inspector didn't even look at the wiring, just the stickers on the breaker and external disconnect. In Oregon.

Reply to
mike

I guess that would depend on the AHJ. Most places in the US you'd need an electrical permit for that, the work done by a licensed electrician or the homeowner, with an inspection.

Reply to
trader4

Not legally but it does happen a lot. Another example is a water heater. Most are replaced without a permit, most AHJs think they need one. I have even heard CBOs saying they wish Home Depot (et al) would be required to see a permit and record the number before they sold one

Reply to
gfretwell

When I was an inspector, my wife was a builder. I would come home from a seminar and warn her what the inspectors would be looking for next week. I was usually right.

Reply to
gfretwell

The NEC used to have language about parts being "listed". Now parts have to be "approved", which is defined as "acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction" (the dreaded AHJ). The AHJ can look to see if the parts are "listed" or "labeled" as meeting an acceptable standard as tested by an acceptable testing laboratory.

The change in language was likely to get the NEC out of decisions about which testing laboratories are acceptable.

The AHJ can use their discretion to accept parts that are not listed or labeled The NEC has a list of some of the considerations for whether a part is acceptable.

Utility wiring is explicitly not covered by the NEC. The meter is a little funny because, for overhead distribution, the riser and meter socket are owned by the building owner and inspected. Since the meter is owned by the utility I would guess the inspector would ignore it.

I think if an installation was passed by the AHJ an insurance company would have trouble denying coverage. And I would think it would have to be rather blatant to allow non-coverage. [Maybe installing a subpanel?]

If I remember right, you said the link between legs had a fuse. Fuses in power circuits should be rated for the available fault current where they are located. The fuse for this is probably "supplementary", and that probably doesn't apply. I would like to have a fuse that does comply. The available fault current at a panel is likely 5,000-10,000A. Fuses with that short circuit rating are quite available. Glass 3AG type fuses aren't likely a good choice, don't know what you have.

Reply to
bud--

I always hear these stories about insurance "might be" denied for unlicensed work but I think it is bullshit. Most fires in homes are caused by people doing something stupid and they still get paid.

Reply to
gfretwell

There was a fairly recent thread here about a fire in CA where an architect was prosecuted and convicted for installing a fireplace very wrong, and after he told the building inspector there would be no fireplace. Some firemen may have died in the fire??

Wonder if the insurance paid on that one.

Reply to
bud--

Another example is a water heater. Most are replaced without a permit, most AHJs think they need one. I have even heard CBOs saying they wish Home Depot (et al) would be required to see a permit and record the number before they sold one

Please elucide -what are AHJ's and CBO's? The acronyms that I normally use don't have those included

Reply to
hrhofmann

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