Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?

[gfretwell]

Authority Having Jurisdiction, usually your local building department Chief Building Official, the guy who runs that department.

[Robert Green]

All of this is leading me to want to leave the unit as a plug in and simply install another 240VAC outlet for the welder downstream of the one that serves the coupler/repeater.

But that still creates an interesting dilemma if the insurer insists all things electrical must be UL listed. Excluding the device that supplies power to the whole house would seem a glaring exception.

You bad dog. (-; You do realize you've opened Pandora's box - again.

I'm kind of embarrassed to say that during beta testing when I noticed no fuses in the design of the repeater I insisted that an unlisted piece of equipment *should* have some sort of internal fusing, if only to show a concern for safety in the design. Jeff told me the worst damage he had seen was an improperly connected coupler where the traces had lifted off the circuit board. Now the fuses pop instead. (-:

[Robert Green]

Thanks for the data point. It's a little disturbing that the inspector didn't bother to look at the wiring, just the stickers. If they got the breaker choice wrong, I might suspect they did something else wrong.

[Robert Green]

I often wondered whether they were supposed to call the inspector but didn't bother. I don't think there's a mechanism for the AHJ to find such installations. They were the low bidder and they proved it with their less than stellar work (garbage, knock outs and all sorts of metal stuff left outside where they could get picked up by the lawnmower).

Lo barato cuesta caro. ("The cheap becomes the expensive")

[Robert Green]

The butthead that installed my WH the last time around certainly could have used inspecting. Thank God I had already installed a CO detector because he had not attached the flue pipe to the chimney correctly and a week after the install it just fell off. Unlike car exhaust, there was no tell-tale odor of any kind (I realize CO is odorless, but with cars, you can usually smell exhaust gas).

[Robert Green]

We have one inspector in this jurisdiction who's a real SOB. Some of them like to go beyond checking for a safe installation and wander into the harrassment zone. Of course, when I grew up in NYC the inspectors would pretty openly solicit bribes, so I guess it could always be worse. (-:]

Apparently at least some NYC inspectors are following in the grand old tradition:

[Robert Green]

When I worked doing litigation support for several DC law firms, insurers were reluctant to deny claims because of the potential penalties imposed by the insurance commission. However, they were more than happy to subrogate. That means after they paid the homeowner/business owner they then went after any party they believed had contributed to the fire, especially those with deep pockets.

[Robert Green]

I think all bets are off if you end up killing someone. In those cases insurers probably feel pretty safe in questioning the claim without fearing being penalized by the state insurance commission. It also elevates the situation to being investigated by a government agency. They're likely to be seen by the commission and the courts as far more impartial than an insurance investigator.

[gfretwell]

In SW Florida, Lee County particularly, there is not much emphasis on catching homeowners doing unpermitted activity. They do try to catch unlicensed or unpermitted activity by 3d parties but this is more in the vein of consumer protection than revenue. Generally it is complaint driven or, occasionally, an inspector will see a job in progress and there is no permit on record or the trucks do not have a license number on them. You still have the right to refuse entry into your house without a warrant and they seldom ask unless they can just cajole you into thinking having them taking a look at the work you are having done is a good thing. The "contractor" himself is still subject to being accosted when he comes outside and they can call the sheriff if the guy is hard to get along with. Generally this will just be an administrative action if the guy has a license.

This is separated from the tax man. That is a separate agency that uses aerial photos and biannual on site inspections to get their money. If you can see it outside the house, it will show up on your tax bill, even if nobody ever mentions it to you.

[gfretwell]

I can honestly say bribes are very rare around here. I have never heard about it from the inspector side, nor has my wife from the builder side.

I guess bribing inspectors to overlook violations still does not keep the lawyers away and there are to many ways to seek recourse if the inspector is just making up a violation to get a bribe.

[Stormin Mormon]

Glad that got discovered, and didn't lead to illness or worse.

I got to replace a length of flue pipe one time for a WH, the power company guy noticed and redtagged the unit. Not much room to work, and it was a real challenge. Perforated galvanized strap makes up for a lot of lack of man hands. My arms are too short.

[Robert Green]

I've seen that happen to a number of house-flippers on the various "Flip This House" TV shows, especially concerning outside work like redoing steps leading up to the house.

Yeah, that's like cops trying to convince a suspect to "get ahead of this thing" before you get into real trouble. Don't believe it!

That's a big IF.

I'd like to get "separated from the tax man." Permanently!

Been there, done that with the damn central AC that I no longer even use. One year I challenged my assessment and boy oh boy did they ever lace into me with every inspector/inspection they could think of. The "message" was "don't challenge us - EVER!"

[Robert Green]

bes-article-1.1549898

I think it's mostly a big city problem. My Chicagoland friend tells me his dad used to leave folded $20s stuck in places the inspector was sure to find and they always disappeared without comment but with final approval stickers.

The guy in the Daily News article was a junkie so it's apparent that the inspection bureau's a little lax in inspecting their own workers.

A long, LONG time ago when I worked installing restaurant software systems, the DC inspectors were notorious for taking bribes because even a day's shutdown could have such serious consequences for the owners. A lot of it was "iffy" sort of stuff that a different inspector could easily overlook. I'm betting that the world of microcameras and video recorders have really slowed down the inspectors that take bribes because once you get one of them on film taking money, you basically own them. (-: For every tall wall, there's a taller ladder somewhere.

[Vic Smith]

From what I've seen it's mostly the contractors using codes to threaten bringing the inspector's down on you. Then they work together. I was somewhat involved back in the late '70's when Mirage was going on.

Kid across burned his garage down when his motorcycle caught on fire. It burned my garages and took out an electrical service leg to my

2-flat. Com Ed said I needed a new service before they could do the new leg. My service was a 30-amp fuse box from the '20's. That got the inspection dept involved. The inspector was okay. He walked through the basement, pointed out a couple things to fix. A hanging light and an uncovered junction box. He very pointedly said "I'm not going upstairs." And then he repeated it. Of course codes required a lot more outlets in the intervening 50 years. I couldn't afford to rehab my entire electrical. The inspector at least suspected that.

Then I began calling contractors. I liked the first guy. Just trusted him as honest. Wanted $500 for the job. The second contractor gave me a cost almost twice a high. $900. I told him about the first estimate and asked why his price was so much higher. He said the guy wasn't licensed, and bought his permits. He was pretty "outraged" about it.

After thinking briefly about the cost of inspector problems I decided to go with him. An outfit called McCoy electric. I called the first guy up and told him, and told him what McCoy had said. He admitted he wasn't licensed, but said the work would be legal and pass inspection. I told him I wasn't taking chances. I called McCoy back and he said he'd come over, and he did. Riding a new Honda Goldwing. So he wants to go upstairs. I told him the inspector wasn't going upstairs. He wasn't hearing me, and started talking about his "reputation" and insisted on checking out the 2 apartments upstairs. Didn't matter to him the inspector wasn't going upstairs.

I got hot at him trying to inflate the job beyond what he done already with his price, and told him we're done, and I swear to God I had to chase him out the front door. He was hot too, but backed away.

I went right to the phone and called the first guy - 5th Avenue Electric - back and told him he had the job. He was surprised, said he thought he "lost me." Tell you the truth, I still had misgivings until he came out and explained some things to me about permits. I wasn't worried about the inspector. Solid and meant what he said.

Anyway he and some of his brothers did the job in a day, including some extra work upstairs fishing wire to new boxes and adding some wall switches. One new circuit. $25 a box with me doing the plaster. I didn't have the extra $300 or so. He just said pay me when you have it. He did borrow some books from me, but returned them before I paid him off. Camping books. We both had an interest in that. They were 11 brothers in the business their dad started years ago. The city had pulled their license because they wouldn't "cooperate." They had no problem getting permits. Their licensed friends pulled them. Funny. You only need to be licensed to pull permits, not to do the work. The dad was wearing a wire for the feds, but his kid was mum about that. Mike Royko featured him in a column about a year later when the scandal broke, praising him. The inspector didn't go up upstairs.

You know, I didn't like that McCoy prick as soon as I saw that Goldwing. Gave me bad vibes. OTOH, I had the service in this house upgraded in '98 so I could install central air. Got about 3 estimates. The third guy pulls up in a Mercedes. I asked him why he's driving a Mercedes to an estimate. He explained it was a "classic," and he got it cheap from his girlfriend's mom, and he liked driving it. Young guy, strong and a hustler. He was low bidder and he got the job. Threw in an extra circuit.

Unless the inspection department gets involved, such as a service, I don't get permits. But I want it checked by a licensed guy. For plumbing I just do it. But I check the codes.

[Robert Green]

It's been a long time since anyone mentioned the Mirage sting operation. Caught a lot of fish.

[Vic Smith]

The guy was trying to inflate the work I called him to do. When an inspector says I'm not going upstairs, that's it. Common with old buildings just needing a new service. Jesus, if new codes were enforced on old buildings it would never end.

Sounds like fun. Only other time it happened was with an insurance salesman. The guy actually walked into the open front door from the vestibule to the living room, while a birthday party for my little daughter was going on. I was like WTF, who are you? He still tried to sell me insurance. Again, like the electrical contractor, he couldn't take "no" for an answer, and I came close to using physical force to remove him. Unbelievable.

The Daily News was the worst of the Chicago papers in terms of coverage. I subscribed to read Royko.

I'm not technical enough to know what "dual skinny" is. Haven't read this entire thread.

I've got 2-wire here. When I had a plumber replace my lift system pump, I knew enough to tell him I wouldn't trust the switch, and asked if he didn't want me to turn off the breaker. Naw, its okay. Until he got zapped. Wired backwards. I don't trust switches.

[micky]

My advice, and it applies to girls too when a guy won't leave, is to say, "I have to call a buddy" or "I have to call a my friend, Sue", but really call 911. One can dial 4 or 7 more numbers after 911 and it won't change anything, I'm sure. And the first thing out of one's mouth when on the phone should be the name and an identifier or descriptor (like, the guy who lives two doors down), in case he takes the phone away and starts to hit you, before you get to the part of the sentence with his name., but as one were talking to a friend and not the police. Don't do this with speakerphone and hold the phone close to the ear so he probably won't hear.

"Joe Blip is here, the guy who works at Western Electric, and he's blah blah. Maybe if you came over and he could tell us/show us both at the same time, he'd feel his visit was worthwhile" or whatever.

In the movies, the girl always turns her back on the guy who won't leave, and that makes sense if she's going to say, "Can you send a policeman here right now" but if one uses code, she can face the intruder and dodge him when he starts to strangle her.

Wow

[micky]

With a home insurance salesman, you say, "I want to show you this problem with the sidewalk, or drain" and when you two get outside, you go back inside.

I read Royko too when I lived in Chcago.

[gfretwell]

Before you get too macho about what you can do about a stranger who won't leave after you invite them in. my friend did 7 years on a Maryland murder beef for fighting with a guy who wouldn't leave. He was supposed to call the cops and/or run away.

[Robert Green]

I hope you noticed in both my and Micky's response that calling the cops is of the utmost importance. It's the difference between what Zimmerman did and Dunn, the loud music shooter did NOT do. Zimmerman was acquitted, Dunn was convicted.

I don't know the circumstances of your friend, but I can't help but wonder if he had a public defender or some seriously bad legal representation. Once the police (and the guest) are made aware that the guest is no longer wanted, the guest's legal position deteriorates, especially if on the 911 recording the guest is clearly quite belligerent in his refusal to leave.

Could I have just gunned him down in cold blood for refusing to leave? Sure, but I would be guilty of murder. Would I be guilty of murder if he came at me with a heavy bowling trophy he picked up from the shelf before I shot him? Probably not. Would I be guilty of murder if I put the trophy in his dead hand after I killed him in cold blood? Morally, but I would be legally very hard to convict if no one saw me do it.

In Maryland, IIRC, you can't (usually) meet non-lethal force WITH greater (lethal) force. But there are exceptions. I am not sure of the details of your friend's case, but when you're in your own home, at least in Maryland, the duty to retreat does not apply. If you're elderly and crippled by arthritis, for example, the duty to retreat also does not apply even outside the home.

In my case I had no real duty to retreat and I had pretty certain knowledge that he had just seriously beaten his wife and was acting as if he meant to finish the job (she was hiding upstairs with my wife).

The prudent thing was to wait for the cops, who came quickly and once they examined his driver's license and determined he had no legal right to be there, told him to leave. When he said "you can't tell me what to do on private property" the two cops lifted him straight out of the chair, one on each arm and then dragged him out to the patrol car where they homogenized him a bit before handcuffing him and taking him away to be booked - not for trespassing but resisting arrest, a much more serious crime.