On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 8:45:27 AM UTC-4, SeaNymph wrote:
none of it matters
Apple will make the next OS version more secure and make it impossible for their own engineers to crack. Apple doesn't want to be in this position again.
In that sense, Apple won becasue no leagal precident was set that can stop them from making their OS more secure, which is what they want to do.
Which is the right answer. There should be a limit to what a govt (any govt) can demand.
What if it was a Samsung phone? Can the FBI make demands on a non US company? Can another govt make demands on Apple? Its a can of worms.
If the FBI or NSA or KGB can crack it without Apples help, fine. Have at it. Just don't ask me to help.
I've discussed this with you before.
Many other people agree that this case is NOT just about this particular phone.
This case IS all about setting a legal precident.
You refuse to acknowledge that fact.
So YOU are ok with helping the KGB? (if you read what I wrote)
On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 1:40:29 PM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
How am I helping the KGB? The KGB is a party here? Does the KGB have
a search warrant from an American court allowing the search? Good grief.
And what precedent exactly are we setting? Apple has already assisted the
govt with unlocking cell phones in 70 other cases. It's just that in
this most heinous of cases, that suddenly Tim Cook for some reason got
the urge to not cooperate. Hope he and you are happy. Instead of Apple
doing it quietly, now the phone was unlocked by persons unknown, could
be a teenage hacker who's next move is to post the solution on the internet.
Or it could be posted by one of 100 others who may also be trying to crack
it, just they are a little further behind. So, are you happy now? Apple
happy? Are Apples customers better off now instead of Apple doing it
On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 1:53:24 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
I am happy that the govt got the info they say they needed AND that NO LEGAL precident was set allowing a govt to force companies to do their bidding.
Frankly i would be disappointed in the NSA if they actually NEEDED anyones help for this kind of thing.
On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 13:48:27 -0700 (PDT), firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
The NSA is prohibited by law from cracking a phone that was not on
foreign soil. The dispute right now is how much they are allowed to
monitor calls and data originating outside the country but ending up
I can see why they would not publically enter this debacle.
On 3/29/2016 6:04 AM, email@example.com wrote:
Exactly. They will design the *hardware* so that NO SOFTWARE UPDATE can
alter these behaviors. When "ordered" to comply, they will say, "OK,
give us the phone, we are going to erase the CIRCUITRY and lay down NEW
CIRCUITRY; in the process, effectively DESTROYING the phone and its
contents But, hey, if that's what you want...."
Yes. And, if laws are enacted to prevent them from making a secure device,
can they simply become a FOREIGN CORPORATION? Can they simply refuse to
offer their products for sale in the US?
"Dear iPhone customer, As of <date> your $600 telephone will no
longer be supported. Nor will your government allow you to purchase
a new product from us. Oh, and, by the way, your congresscritter's
phone number and email address appear on the screen below this message..."
Amusing considering how the same government went to bat *for* Apple to
prevent it from caving to similar demands of the *Chinese* gummit!
It's not a question of *asking* but, rather, of FORCING assistance. "Forced
"Mr Cronkite, we want to exploit YOUR GOOD NAME AND REPUTATION for our
benefit. This court order insists that you tell everyone to vote
Republican in the upcoming election on each of your newscasts between
now and the election."
The feds blew this. They insisted Apple could develop this technology and
"magically" contain it from getting out into the wild. Now, amusingly,
they find themselves in exactly the same position: can they be sure their
employees (<cough> snowden) and the employees of whatever firm assisted
in the operation will continue to keep secret (from big, bad apple) the
means by which they gained access to the phone's contents?
When prosecuters from those other jurisdictions seeking to crack iPhones
for ongoing CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS (no dead terrorists but, rather, murderers,
rapists, drug dealers, tax evaders, pedophiles, etc.) start asking for
*their* phones to be unlocked, will the feds willingly "share their
When the defense attorneys for each of those defendants challenge the
integrity and validity of any such evidence obtained (in an OPEN, *US*
court, not a "secret court" -- guantanamo), will the feds be able to say,
"Trust us, that's what was in the phone. We're not going to tell you
how we know -- cuz Apple might find out! Madame Zelda has never been
wrong when it comes to her tea leave readings..."?
Do we suddenly start shipping everyone with a cracked iPhone off to
gitmo just so we can suspend the rule of law?
So, its a foregone conclusion that Apple *will* (!) know what exploit
was discovered. For the feds to say "we're not going to tell you"
can then be parlayed into "The feds WANT your iPhone to be hackable!
Write your congressman demanding your right to privacy!" Of course,
pointing to J Flaming Edgar, McCarthy, Nixon, Snowden, etc. to further
stoke the fears of government abuses -- should play right into the
hands of those "big government" foes...
And, given their public stance, Apple will probably go out of their way
to ensure that exploit is fixed -- in software and/or hardware (when
you are making hundreds of millions of <anything> you can easily
slip a change into production without having to recall every unit in
If they feel their reputation as been sullied, they can "simply" offer
$50,000 to the first person (or firm) that can demonstrate a NEW hack
of their next product -- and publicize how long the prize goes unclaimed
("Gee, I guess no pimply faced teenagers interested in a $50K prize?
Maybe we should up the ante to $100K? $250K?? I.e., add a few pennies
to every iPhone sale to pay for a POTENTIAL crack??")
[Rivest et al. did this when they introduced their breakthrough technology
in the late 70's But, they were "mere mortals" without the deep pockets of
the largest corporation on the planet!]
And, NONE OF THIS does anything to anticipate the next attack -- unless
they stumble upon PHYSICAL POSSESSION of another iPhone before such an
attack (which, as seems to be the case in Belgium, could just ACCELERATE
the timetable for it).
"Gee, you've got all these tools to pry into our secrets (all the
while getting REALLY UPSET when YOURS are leaked) yet you STILL
can't keep us safe?"
Or, when/if it gets into the hands of hackers and Apple publicizes the
fact that this is "probably" a result of the Feds very public effort of
prying into their technology? Or, the firm that assisted in the effort
being hacked (e.g., by a NATION STATE intent on gaining access to that
And, does absolutely nothing to protect against someone using an encryption
technology that Apple doesn't control! That the phone doesn't *preserve*!
etc. Just because the feds make obvious blunders:
"Reset the cloud password for this phone! (Ooops!)"
"OK, boys, lets UNPLUG this computer and pack it up to bring down to
the digital forensics lab for analysis..."
doesn't mean folks who are intent on doing wrongs (in a VERY BIG WAY) will
be similarly inept.
Finally, it still leaves the issue of precedent unresolved. They *may*
have some stale (?) information (clues to an attack in Belgium?) from
two lone wolves but have made their work going forward all the more
difficult (while raising expectations as to what they *will* be able
Yes, the feds lost big time!
On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 3:09:43 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
I see. So for example, all iPhones will have the 10 strikes and it
erases everything implemented in hardware with no possible way for
the user to turn it off? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
What about the users that don't want that to happen?
Wrong. No such thing was at issue in the case.
That would seem to depend on what the hypothetical new law would
More nonsense thrown in for good measure.
Nor will your government allow you to purchase
Totally absurd attempt at comparison. Apple is not being compelled or
asked to say anything.
Good grief. It's clear that Apple is the big loser here. Apple told
it's customers that they had purchased a very secure product. So secure
that Apple couldn't trust themselves to help unlock that one phone in
their own labs, where they were in control of everything. Cook said
that if they did that, well somehow magically all the iPhones in the
whole world would be compromised, no longer secure, their user's information
at risk etc., even though nothing ever left Apple's lab. So now, some
unknown party, possibly a teenage hacker has done it instead. Therefore
exactly what Cook told Apple customers would be devastating has happened
and what's orders of magnitude worse, it happened with God know who
in control of the method, instead of Apple.
It may not be the govts to share, depending on what kind of agreement
they reached with whoever provided the help. But not to worry, now
that Apple went public with all this, threw down the gauntlet, I would
be surprised if there aren't plenty of hackers out there working on
the problem and before long how to do it could be all over the internet.
That assumes that there is a trial, that the phone data is necessary
evidence for the trial, etc. And then it would be up to the court
to decide what exactly in the process is relevant and what is not.
Forget to take your pills today?
Only if they are told.
Clearly they have no duty to cooperate with Apple, especially given
Apple's refusal to cooperate with the govt.
Please, take those pills!
Wow, who would have ever thought that.
Sounds like you're as confused as Tim Cook.
It was never about encryption technology in this case. It was about
10 strikes and it erases.
That the phone doesn't *preserve*!
How exactly did the feds lose again? The feds wanted the phone unlocked
and they got it. Apple told the world that if they, Apple, unlocked it
that all the existing iPhones would be compromised. So now, someone,
quite possibly a hacker, has done exactly that. Instead of Apple doing
it quietly, in their own lab, keeping what they did secret, someone
else is now in possession of how to get into all those iPhones. Apple
lost big time.
On 3/28/2016 7:54 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
FBI needs physical possession of the phone to crack it in this way.
The solution they wanted from Apple would have allowed them to PUSH
an update to any phone IN THE WILD and crack it remotely.
FBI lost this battle. And, Apple can now work on other approaches
to make iPhone7 "impossible" for them to comply with ANY court
FBI was stupid in how they handled this one!
... thereby breaking the chain of custody, and rendering any information retrieved by Apple
completely useless for any criminal prosecution -- so says an attorney I heard discussing the
case on the radio a couple of weeks ago.
The feds will argue that they aren't looking for evidence, just "tips".
[Of course, any of those other court cases still pending now can probably
be challenged by defense attorneys: "My client claims the 'evidence'
The State has introduced has been tampered with. We demand to know *HOW*
that evidence was obtained. We've retained a crew of former Apple
employees to examine, carefully, the State's claims as to how they
extracted it from this device..."]
Apple was asked to WRITE SOFTWARE, cryptographically *sign* that software
and then introduce it to the phone (via the normal update mechanism).
The feds spelled out EXACTLY what the differences between that software and
the "normal" software would be. I.e., it didn't include anything that
would make a casual user of an "updated" phone realize that it had been
hacked. The changes would only be noticed by a person wanting to
circumvent the protections on the phone:
"Gee, I wonder if my phone has been hacked? How can I test this
theory? Ah! I can deliberately enter a bad passcode 11 times and
see if I end up BRICKING my phone (in which case, it has NOT been
hacked). If it still works after that 11th attempt, I'll know
the phone has been hacked!"
The feds lost this -- and probably KNEW they would lose in the courts.
Now that the feds have an "alternative remedy", they can't argue that they
should be able to compel Apple to "write software" -- even resorting to
200 year old laws! And, Apple can spin this as "why should we be compelled
to 'speak' (the act of writing software is a form of speech) what YOU want
us to speak"?
But, this tool will only help them with phones of which they can gain
physical custody. So, they're stuck in perpetual "catch up" mode.
And, the bad guys now know that they should toss their phone into
a wood chipper before embarking on any evil deeds!
Apple, of course, now knows that they should ensure any future phones
have the protection mechanisms built into *hardware* -- so they can't
be tweeked (under court order) by rewriting the software.
Yes, the feds were stupid to let this boil over into the public...
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