Hot Water Recirculating Pump

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

Always a trade-off between energy and water use. This solution by the way, can be used where a sweating toilet tank is a problem.

[trader_4]

Systems like that are readily available and don't cost a fortune either. I've even seen them sold in Costco. "High temp impregnated foam insulation"? ROFL Where do you come up with this stuff?

The simplest systems use a pump located at the farthest point. It includes a temp sensor, so it only runs enough to keep the water at the desired temp. Some have timers so that they only run at times when water use is expected.

The big drawback is that unless you have a return line, these systems pump the water back into the cold water side. So any faucet on that cold water line, be it the kitchen sink, an ice maker, etc will at times have stale hot water in them when water is first drawn.

[trader_4]

Bingo. Some people act like this is something that's never been done before, is hugely expensive, impractical, etc. Like I said, Costco even sold them at one point.

If you want to get creative a motion sensor that activated it when someone walked into the bathroom would be ideal.

Seems reasonable to me. My main beef with them is that without a separate return line you wind up pumping tepid water from the hot side into the cold line. And anyone pulling water from that line will get it. If it's for a drink, the kitchen, ice maker, I wouldn't like that aspect.

[Unquestionably Confused]

[SNIP]

[SNIP II]

I guess that I could have mentioned that, but in our house it's a non-issue. Since we have softened water, the only water we drink in any quantity (other than a quick swish of a small cup when brushing teeth) is from an unsoftened water tap in the kitchen or from the ice maker/water dispenser in the refrigerator. Both of those lines are hard water and, thus, out of the loop.

[knuckle-dragger]

I read all the replies to this IMO brain-dead, overly-complex and highly-costly method to solve a simple problem.

The easy cost-effective solution is not to move heated water but (presuming you can) move the power source. In my case it's gas. If you have electric it's already there. Oil? Wake up to the 21st century.

Place the water heater in close proximity to the point of use. For my main bathroom it's in a closet underneath. For the kitchen there's another one in the basement right below. For the second bathroom it's on the same floor in the next room (another closet). I also have them plumbed so that any one heater can provide hot water for the entire house in case one or even two break down.

I'm usually the first up in the morning and when I go in for my shower I turn on the water, take off my gown, and lay out the floor mat. By this time the water is steaming. 15 seconds maybe.

This setup also allows for two people to have a shower at the same time and a third can run the dishwasher with no diminution in volume.

[My 2 Cents]

I had old steel pipes with a lot of deposits and low volume. I finally gathered up some CPVC 1/2 inch plastic pipe/fittings and a can of glue and bit the bullet. I crawled under the house and ran a line almost straight from the hot water tank to the kitchen sink. Now it takes 9 seconds or less than a quart of water to get hot water at the kitchen sink or dishwasher. The bathroom takes a while longer, no big deal since the toilet paper holder has a radio. Indoor plumbing, what a country!

[Penney Buck]

Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, read the original requirements. The OP was looking to save money over a continuously running loop system. How does installing up to 6 water heaters, each with their own standby losses, save operating cost?

[trader_4]

And what makes anyone think that there is room, it's practical, to put six water heaters in a typical house?

[DerbyDad03]

The electric is already where? If you had installed 3 electric WH's would the access to the power have already been where you needed it? How much wiring do you have in your closets?

Did you run gas lines to all 3 locations? Did you include that cost in the pay-back calculations along with the cost of the 3 WH's and the cost of 3 standby losses? Remember, the main goal of the OP is to save money, not just have instant hot water at every fixture.

[gfretwell]

Most houses do not have that many wet walls. It may be fairly easy to break the hot water line at the far end of the house for a small heater. You could also put a 240v element in a smaller 120v heater so the electrical requirements would be cut by 3/4. Recovery time would not be important in an application like this. If you insulated this well, it might not cost that much.

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

They may be awesome, but they aren't economical. They cost more to install and more to maintain than storage heaters. They do have benefits - essentially unlimited supply and less installation space, but you will pay more.

[knuckle-dragger]

Where? At the house. Poorly worded perhaps, but my point was that some people can't get NG, Propane costs too much, and oil lines are out of the question.

I have gas lines in every room in the house and in the case of the bathrooms I was remodeling them so I was running all new electricity, all new gas and new DWV. The heater and associated supply lines were already there for the basement/cellar.

It's not just to have instant hot water; it's to avoid complex and expensive labor if anything breaks down as I know it will. My sons and I can replace a WH in about two hours including buying it and picking it up. The point of three WH's is also to avoid the dreaded "anxious buyer and rapacious and non-anxious seller" syndrome. The plumbers and even the big box stores know they've got you over a barrel when they hear that your WH is kaput. No concessions whatsoever. You pay top dollar and delivery is "When we feel like it."

I maintain the same policy with all appliances: two washer/dryers, two refrigerators, two dishwashers, back-up heaters (gas) in all major rooms, and window air conditioners so I always have at least one cool room. The only thing I don't have in duplicate (at least) is the base supply (gas and electricity) but they're too costly and hard to install.

[T]

You funny bunny!

:-)

No one actually try this. The hot water will crack a cold porcelain toilet.

[T]

Thank you! I forwarded the advice on to the customer

[HerHusband]

There are plenty of small water heaters that are designed to be placed in a cabinet or under a sink, such as this one:

Heater/dp/B0148O658Y

Obviously, a small heater like that isn't going to supply all of your hot water, but it would take care of most quick tasks. Washing your hands, rinsing a dish, etc.

You could certainly install six of these small heaters in most houses, but it wouldn't make financial sense. Six small heaters would cost $960, not to mention the electrical and plumbing upgrades needed to support them.

A traditional recirculating system is easier to use, takes up less space, and would probably be cheaper in the long run.

Anthony Watson

[trader_4]

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:19:07 PM UTC-5, [e-mail]

Now that is very unusual and costly. And even if you do have gas in every room, I would expect that venting gas water heaters in any room would not be trivial.

[knuckle-dragger]

I didn't run them. The house was built in the late-1800's/early-1900's and all rooms were lit by gas, the latest and greatest at the time. Subsequent modifications were just to cap the gas pipes at the point they exit the wall and install electric light beside them. The gas was also used for heating with individual gas fires in most fireplaces. Somewhat unsafe given that it was coal gas, the gas stoves lacked pilot lights, and I don't think they had even invented oxygen depletion sensors at the time. I still have one (unused) in one bathroom.

As to venting the gas WH's, not too expensive. All those fireplaces had chimneys which, when open, provided good draft. But even if you didn't have easy access to a chimney a hole drilled in the wall will provide sufficient venting provided you install a "Power Vent" WH which cost about $200 more than a regular generic. I did this in the main bathroom. I could have installed one that not only vents the WH but also pulls in combustion air from outside but IIRC that would have added $400 or so.

[trader_4]

You do realize that you're talking about a very unusual house. What percent of housing do you think has gas run to every room for lighting because it's from the 1800s? I'd suspect very few that had it, still have it. And I'd also wonder about the safety of gas piping that old. And putting in a vent for a water heater isn't nearly as simple as you make it sound. If you get lucky and there is a closet or similar location on an outside wall and that outside wall is not objectionable for a vent, then it's easy. But even then, you lose the closet. Want to give up your bathroom closet? And if it's not an outside wall or the wall is on the front of the house, then it gets difficult or impossible real fast.

[Unquestionably Confused]

And even if that old house DID have gas to every room as knucklehead claims, the lines would likely be smaller than necessary to supply a sufficient gas flow for a gas HWH let alone a demand water heater. The capacity of gas lines varies. Think wiring gauge and its ability to carry 10, 15, 20 amps, etc.

Regardless, somebody has forgotten the OP's desire to accomplish this mission on the cheap.

[Ed Pawlowski]

My grandmother's house had gas to most every room. Going from memory, it may have been about 3/8". That is large enough for a small heater. I'm also aware that all the piping was disconnected for at least 60 or

70 years. I'd not trust it.