In our part of the country, Catalina is tops. The other brand names you mentioned are good, but I was told by a spa EXPERT that unless you live in the state that manufacturers them, or you have a dealer near by that they are hard to get parts for.
I would suggest that the OP, and all others use a thing called Google. It is a very handy device, kind of like a reference library on steroids. In it, one can get all sorts of things. I just did a search on "hot tub ratings" and got 10,300,000 answers in .30 seconds. They range from Consumer Reports, Pool and Spa News, etc. People who see spas every day.
To suggest any here would not be good. I will suggest Catalina since they are a standard in the industry. A friend of mine in California has a new Hot Springs spa, but there is no supplier in my town, so getting parts would be difficult for me if I owned one here.
Do two things. Count the pumps, and count the jets. Buy one that has at least two pumps, and one that has the most number of jets. And look for the Catalina name plate.
The truth is, as with most products, you pretty much get what you pay for so, personally, I would shy away from the low end. A hot tub is a major, long-term investment. It's not like a car that you might trade every three or four years; once in place, it will likely stay there for sometime to come.
Buy from a reputable spa dealer, not a mass merchant that knows little about the products they sell or how well they might fit your specific needs and expectations. Bear in mind, mass merchants can change manufacturers/brands at anytime, as they typically source from the lowest cost supplier and routinely put these products up for bid. Likewise, I would avoid buying from anyone that sets up a tent at the local fair ground, then pulls up the stakes to move on to the next town. I can tell you that no matter how well built your tub may be, there will be issues/problems that will arise from time to time and you will, of course, require various replacement parts (e.g., filters) over the life of the product.
Ask your friends, colleagues, neighbours, family members, whomever you know who owns a hot tub what they like and, in particular, don't like about their tub. Ask them how their dealer treated them. Was it with respect? Did the salesperson ask questions in an effort to better understand what they wanted in a tub (and actually listened to their answers), or did they simply try to push a particular model? Did they bad mouth a competing product or local dealer (always a good time to make a bee line for the door). Are they happy with the after sales service and warranty support?
Be careful not to rush into a purchase or fall victim to high-pressure sales tactics; take your time and do your homework. Try to sort through all the conflicting claims (trust me, there will be plenty). And don't put a whole lot of weight on the "we have more horsepower", "more jets", "more what have you" pitches. After all, you only want to relax in your hot tub, not have the skin literally ripped off your body. :-)
It's absolutely critical that you get inside as many tubs as you can and see how each one feels. Move from seat to seat and pay particular attention to the amount of foot room -- this is one area where a lot of tubs fall down badly. Can you comfortably stretch out without playing footsies with the person across from you? Get a sense of where the water level will be, for all family members.... we're not all built the same and you don't want to resort to snorkel kits, nor do you want the upper two-thirds of your body exposed to air.
Some of the tubs that claim to accommodate six to eight people, simply don't (what do they think we are, midgets on diets?). Take the number of gallons/litres and divide by the number of seats to get a true sense of the amount of room they offer per person. And by all means, do a "wet test"; a good dealer will be happy to arrange a time that is convenient for you to come in to their store and try out their products. These dealers know 90 per cent of their business is through referral and word of mouth, so it's in their interest to ensure you're absolutely happy with your choice.
To be helpful, here are a few things I would personally look for in a tub (this list is by no means exhaustive, but it should be sufficient to get you started):
- a good, no hassle, warranty. Pay special attention to the limitations and exclusions or "weasel words" as I like to call them. You don't want a heater, say, to fail and then have a finger pointed at you and be blamed for not properly maintaining the water (sadly, this sort of thing happens all too often).
- synthetic skirting. Real wood looks good initially, but over time it will fade, crack and become stained by water and chemicals. Synthetic skirting continues to look good year after year and requires virtually no maintenance (and since your hot tub is likely to become the focal point of your backyard or deck, good appearance is important).
- a fully foamed tub with high-density, closed cell polyurethane foam, for four good reasons: superior heat retention, structural rigidity (so the spa shell doesn't weaken under the weight of the water and the stresses of people getting in and out), quieter operation and, perhaps most importantly, to cradle and support the internal plumbing (without this support, the weight of the water in these long lines can put considerable stress on the joints and this, in turn, can increase the likelihood of leaks over time). Also, closed cell foam doesn't absorb moisture as does open cell, so it won't lose its efficiency and it won't support mould and mildew. It's more expensive, but definitely well worth it. BTW, ever heard people complain about how their spa covers become heavy over time or musty smelling? Now you know.
- an ozone system to help keep the water fresh and clear. Avoid the type that use UV lamps as they produce relatively little usable ozone. In addition, these bulbs have to be replaced when they burn out (roughly 15,000 hours or every year and half), which results in an ongoing maintenance and expense. Corona discharge systems produce far more ozone, use a fraction of the electricity and should last the life of your spa. And contrary to what some might suggest, ozone systems doesn't eliminate the need for a water sanitizer -- they're only there to help support it.
- good filtration. Perhaps one of few times when "more" truly is "better". In a hot tub, your body sloughs-off skin cells, body oils, hand creams, lotions, soaps, shampoos, conditioners and other things you simply don't want to talk about. You want to get all this "stuff" out of the water as quickly as possible and that's the job of the filter. Keep in mind that during certain times of the year when there is a high amount of pollen in the air, smaller filters can clog up pretty quickly. I've purposely avoided recommending specific brands, but I should note that Hot Spring is the only hot tub that filters every single drop of water before it comes out of any jet, 100 per cent of the time ; all other hot tubs employ "by-pass" valves that allow the water in your spa to "by-pass" the filter when the jets are turned on (they simply can't force that volume of water through their filters due to their smaller size). Needless to say, it's precisely when everyone is *in* the tub and the jets are on that you want these filters to do very their best. Water filtration may or may not be all that important to you but, for me, I want my spa water to always look good and I want it to be as clean as possible at all times. Not to belabour this point, but the filters in most Hot Spring spas last seven to ten years and can be cleaned in the dishwasher; standard paper filters, by comparison, typically last two to three years and are cleaned by soaking in a chemical solution for ten to twelve hours.... a huge difference in terms of convenience and ongoing expense.
This has been a long post and I apologize for that. I guess the one thing I would like to emphasize is that you take your time, do your due diligence and speak to as many people as you can before you make your purchase. Believe me, the time you spend upfront is well worth it.
Cheers, Paul
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 22:53:13 -0400, Jud McCranie wrote:
Parts for spas are very easy to get for any brand, regardless of where you live. It's called "The Internet".
There are some really big parts dealers that sell all of the parts used by every brand. Here's the one I use. Their online catalog has pictures of the parts so you can match up what you have and figure out who actually made it.
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When I needed a pump I found these guys to be absolutely great:
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I would not say Catalina is any more of a "standard" than any of the other big outfits.
Whatever winds yer clock. I prefer when I need a part to just take the old part to the shop, match it up, and get a new one. Yes, the Internet is great, but it is not without its problems. I can have a part in an hour, and on the Internet, I have to wait a few days. Once I needed a pump. I called around. I found a used rebuilt one for 1/4 the cost of new. It's still chugging. If one gets the wrong part on the Internet, the spa is down for a week due to shipping logistics. That is unacceptable to me.
So, finding a brand of spa that has a local dealer, TO ME, is an important consideration for support.
But you can't beat filter prices on the Internet compared to local shops.
We purchased a second home in the mountains, that had a spa from Arctic Spas already installed. Arctic Spas is from Edmonton, Alberta- about a thousand miles from here. Their closest dealer is a day's drive away. The spas were reportedly very upper end and seemed to be well built when I pulled the redwood enclosure and inspected the pumps and fittings, before buying the cabin. What I FAILED to check was the local dealer. After buying the cabin, I learned that the local dealer had dropped Arctic Spas from its inventory. I was an orphaned owner, but still covered by factory warranty. When the inevitable break-downs began to occur, I contacted Arctic Spas directly.
We reached a gentleman's agreement that if I would do my own repair labor, they would send me the parts by Federal Express. Over the years, this worked well and I respected their responsiveness.
Here are a few of my amateurish observations:
1) Arctic Spas are designed for cold, cold temperatures. They apply the dense foam to the inside of the enclosure, and not the tub itself. That way, the pumps, heaters, electronics and piping is inside the thermal enclosure. It also makes everything very accessible, which is good.
2) When something breaks on a spa, you will be laying on your stomach, arms extended for a long period of time. In freezing weather, this is a royal pain, and only becomes slightly less so during the summer months.
3) Screws freeze or rust, parts corrode and electronics fail on spas. If you have to do the work yourself, it's a continuing pain in the rump.
A) Get a spa where you can see the components, and they are not submerged and hidden in foam. B) Be sure the dealer has a long association with the manufacturer and plans to continue the relationship. Buy from a good dealer or Sears, not a big-box retailer who has no established service department. C) Unless you love laying on your stomach in mud, snow or ice, arms outstretched, trying to free a rusted bolt with no room to move the wrench, find out about who does the service work and if the service department is well established. If you live in the boondocks, find out if you must pay extra for a service or warranty call. D) Only get a spa where you have easy access to all sides. Despite where the pump and heater are, the leak or problem will happen in the most inaccessible area. E) Be sure to have room to lay (in the mud, snow or rain) all the way around your spa. Don't put it tight against anything. F) Locate not only the drain, but also the sump drains for the pumps. If possible, pipe them to the outside as well so you can totally drain the spa in freezing weather, if desired. G) Get the biggest spa you can afford. Get the deepest one, so that the water comes up to your neck easily. H) Get lots of jets, big pumps and even an air blower. Be sure that the heater-only mode is one of the motors running at low speed. The more bubbles and agitation, the better. I) Skip the fountains, entertainment center, TV, or wet bar on the spa. Instead, do them individually and free standing. They break, can be proprietary to the spa, and just run up the cost. j) A cabana to enclose the spa is nice, but not necessary. It's fun to sit and have snow or sleet coming down on your head. If it gets bad, a towel over your head keeps all warm. K) If you DO go for a cabana, get it big enough that you can change inside, without having to run to the house. L) Get the cover double bagged, if available. The cover will eventually saturate with water from the hot spa, and double bagging slows down the inevitable. M) Get a "swing back" for the cover. That way, you can just flip it open or closed without help. N) Get a spa with plenty of room to set drinks on the rim above the water.
I'm sure I'll thnk of more stuff later on.
I always have that more expensive option if I'm in a hurry, but then, this is not a heart/lung machine we're talking about. If it's down for a few days, nobody will die.
You are paying a price for your impatience. Local dealers are often out of stock on the one part you happen to need. Then they put it in their weekly stock order and you wait much longer than I do ordering my parts from the same warehouse your dealer uses. It's pretty hard to order the wrong part when they have photographs on the website. Once you know that your jets are made by "Turbo Industries" and your electronics were made by "Sparky Technology", It's very easy to pick out the right parts. The electronics "box" in spas are called a "Spa Pack" and they are all distinct looking. Photographs of the circuit board inside are like a fingerprint. When my heater element failed, the dealer would have had a "heater assembly" as a replacement, for $250. Online, I could buy just the element that was bad for $40 plus shipping. I bought two so I will have a spare.
Jets are easy to match up exactly, and for that matter, you may decide to substitute a different type. They all simply mount through a hole, after all. You can mix brands if you desire.
I'm sure the dealer appreciates your enthusiasm and endless supply of ready cash.
Yeah, I'm sure the local dealer is more competitive on service parts that he has you convinced are proprietary!
You've raised a number of good points and offered some really terrific advice.
No question, a cover lifter is an absolute must. The last thing you want to do is to fight with the cover when getting in or out of your spa. It's just about impossible for one person to open and close the cover without twisting and contorting their body like the torsion bars on a Volarie and, more often than not, you can almost guarantee part of that cover is going to end up in the water. And without a cover lifter, there's the question of where to put it. If you put it down on the ground or deck, it's going to get scuffed and dirty and end up bring dirt, grass, sand, etc. into the spa.
And, for several reasons, I would avoid recessing a spa into a deck. For one, as you say, it makes servicing and draining the spa that much more difficult. You also pretty much forego any possibility of using a cover lifter. If the spa is set low in the deck getting in and out becomes uncomfortable and potentially dangerous (you can't easily brace yourself with your hands). And if there are young kids running about, there's a potential tripping hazard. Also, what do you do if you get a bigger BBQ or a larger patio set and now need to move that spa an extra five or six inches? Or what if you decide to replace your spa at some point because it no longer fits your needs? Do you end up rebuilding your deck? Bad news, all around.
I looked closely at Artic Spas' design and I don't want to sound like I'm knocking their product. The fundamental problem I have is that the pumps and electronics are trapped inside a thermal envelope and subject to very high operating temperatures. As you probably already know, heat is not generally kind to electrical equipment and electronics in particular. Also, during the summer months and more so in hotter climates, extended pump use can end up overheating the water. And as you might guess, I tend to believe a fully foamed tub is the better way to go, for reasons previously mentioned. That said, I'm pleased to hear they've been willing to work with you directly in the absence of a local dealer; that's comforting to know.
Not to be argumentative, but there may be times when getting that spa up and running again in a timely fashion is pretty critical.... such as when it's -25C and you're potentially looking at one big and very expensive ice cube :-) That's when you really hope your local dealer has that one part you need and maybe the technician to install it (especially true for those of us, like myself, who can't tell one end of a screw driver from the other).
Also, if you live in Canada, ordering parts from a U.S. supplier is just this side of a nightmare. If a part takes two days to ship anywhere in the States, count on ten days to Canada. Then be prepared to fork over big bucks for shipping, custom charges and brokerage fees (UPS has got to be the worst in this respect). When all is said and done, a local spa dealer may be able to provide you with the necessary part for less.
I'm delighted I could help, but it sounds like you've already got a pretty good handle on this and I'm sure you'll be pleased with whatever product you ultimately decide upon.
The good news is that there are plenty of great choices out there. For the most part, it really does come down to how well the dealer is going to take care of you. Investigate them thoroughly before you hand over your money.
Be aware most spas are NOT U/L listed as an assembly and your inspector may not let you hook it up if you get a permit. Most say they are "listed" by a famous lab but if it is not one of the "Nationally Recognized Testing Labs" like U/L, TUV and ETL the inspector does not have to approve it. They are starting to look. Just because some of the parts are listed does not mean the whole assembly is. Make sure you can get your money back if you can't use it.
I own a vacation rental. It rents for $300 per day. One of the drawing cards is a spa. If the spa is not running, I have complaining guests. Not a heart lung machine situation as one dramatic poster stated, but to me, a potentially money losing situation.
Not to mention they may just decide to confiscate the item pending the court ruling.
When all is said and
We have a cabin at 7,500 feet in elevation in Utah. It gets down to around
0 degrees F. It is a royal PITA if it is not working, and a potentially expensive situation to let if sit for days waiting on a part that may or may not come via the Internet. The Internet is many things, but foolproof it ain't.
Well, not exactly. I've been in a few hot tubs, but the only owner of one I know has one of the round wood ones that is heated by burning wood, which is completely different. We looked at a store last November, but more seriously in the last month.
I fully appreciate what you say. In the case of a vacation rental, clients demand (and rightfully so) everything to be in proper working order. If the tv wasn't working, I could live with it, but the hot tub is a different matter altogether!
I know of one spa manufacturer (it happens to be my "preferred brand") is working on something that could be of interest to people, like yourself, who own rental properties or spas located at remote, unattended, locations. The spa will monitor itself and in the event the heater fails, a filter clogs or something falls outside its normal operating parameters, it will dial its owner or page the local dealer (cellular or land line). In addition, it can be linked to the home's security system and remotely monitored by Chubb or whichever company you use. A service tech can then be dispatched to correct the problem before the condition becomes an even bigger problem (i.e., the big, expensive, ice cube I spoke of earlier). Pretty impressive, indeed.
Sounds like you've got to make yourself some more friends! :-)
Oh boy, not sure what else to suggest, other than hit all the manufacturer's web sites, do the prerequisite Google searches and check out
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(keyword: spas) to see what others have to say about their ownership experience.
When visiting a dealership, you should be able to pick up on various visual clues. For example, is the place spotlessly clean and are the products well presented? Do they have a proper service department? Are their service trucks clean and in good repair? Is the sales staff professional, courteous and genuinely interested in helping me find the right product? Can I do a "wet test"?
I mentioned warranties earlier on. Let me repeat, pay particular attention to the fine print. I read through the warranty coverage for one spa and it was a true eye opener. Basically, it said if there is a problem with the spa that cannot be repaired onsite, the manufacturer reserves the right to replace the spa with one of equal or better value. OK, I'm thinking at this point.... "I can live with that!". Then I read the next sentence, which tells me I'm responsible for the full cost of shipping the defective product back to the manufacturer, as well as that of its replacement. So now I'm asking myself, just how much does it cost to ship an eight hundred pound spa half way across the country and another one to take its place? A thousand dollars? Two thousand dollars? Oh, and who's going to help me get that spa properly packed, protected and ready for pickup?
This is precisely the reason why you must due your due diligence.
We have this system/service on our cabin. So far, only one call when a window blew in during a storm. We have a local resident who runs up and checks on such things, as we are 175 miles from the cabin.
I'm interested in what people think about things that are BY other named companies.
Isn't the reason they don't sell their cheap models under their own name is that they don't want to ruin their reputtation?
The only experience I have is with Sears, and I do believe in their case, that's not the situation. Although I live a lone and don't use my appliances much, my stove, refrigerator, dish washing and clothes washer are all 27 years old and doing fine. And the clothese washer does look, INSIDE, like a whirlpool, that I have had experience with under that name.
But Sears is different from Walmart and many other places. OTher than sears, I repeat the question in my second paragrapgh.
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