"for the most part charlatans"
"biggest scam going"
Yessiree, that's openly defending fraud, alright. Thanks for pointing
You really need to stop being so emotional. It's unseemly. Let me
pose a hypothetical analogy: You wake up in a clearing in a very
dense forest. How big is the forest?
What you are saying, in your emotionally-fraught state, is that you
know how big the forest is from just standing there in the clearing.
You seem to believe that all progress proceeds in a straightforward
linear fashion with no errors, no backtracking, no lost knowledge and
with absolute certitude. I can understand you believing that about
yourself, as you frequently profess the same, but I am surprised that
you think that about humanity and progress in general.
If someone disagrees with you, you call them an idiot. Many people
disagree with you, so there are a lot of idiots out there, but
miraculously you believe these idiots have no impact on life,
knowledge and progress. How is that possible with so many idiots out
Progress is clearly not without drawbacks that may easily outweigh the
benefits, as shown by lead pipes, the introduction of tin cans,
tobacco and pollution from many sources.
Yet, you know. That's special.
Discovering that ammonia cleans clothes wasn't science? Discovering
willow bark helped aches and pains wasn't science because they didn't
know the chemical composition in the main ingredient, salicylic acid?
How about those stupid Japanese sword makers - they really had
horrible results since they wouldn't have been able to pass a
sophomore year course in metallurgy. Or those incredibly silly Mayans
thinking they could predict planetary and stellar alignments and they
didn't even have telescopes. The list is as endless as your myopic
I think you do not grasp the theory behing homeopathy. The theory is that
something akin or affiliated with the malady under treatment, when ingested
in minuscule amounts (I mean REALLY insignificant amounts) will trigger a
bodily response to rehabilitate the diseased organ.
No, willow bark was ingested in therapeutic amounts. Homeopathic remedies
are ingested in nanogram concentrations. A typical dose is equivalent to
dropping one aspirin tablet in a five hundred gallon tank of water then
asking the patient to place one drop of the resultant mixture under the
It's not even that. The person sees *nothing* of the material, it's diluted
so far (10:1 30 times, or some such). It's "benefits" are somehow impressed
on the water molecules, making it non-toxic, yet beneficial.
First off, what is a therapeutic amount? If you mean the minimum
amount that will work, okay, how do you factor in the placebo effect?
That means no amount of aspirin _can_ help you. And I am pretty sure
that a nanogram is infinitely larger than none.
You are familiar with vaccines. A totally minuscule amount is
injected and the body takes over from there. If it works for a
vaccine, will it work for something not injected? Well, the Polio
vaccine can be taken orally, and it's still a minuscule amount. Will
it work with other stuff? I don't know, and neither do you - or
anybody else for that matter. The immune system was around for a fair
bit of time before it was discovered, yet it managed to work just fine
Saying that you know something without a shadow of a doubt about
something as complex as the human body is simply foolish. If you said
take all of the blood out of a body, or cutoff it's head, and it will
die, or something simple like that, I'd agree with you. But you're
not, so I don't. I'll repeat - I'm saying I don't know and neither
does anybody else.
We have just barely gotten started understanding the human body.
Don't pretend we're done.
Homeopathic is VERY, VERY symptom specific. Even you have use it
properly like not handling the tablet with fingers, etc.
No sense talking about it for some one who never tried it or does
Your thinking gives me fits, not sure about the ben part.
Animals manufacture meat, skin, fur and all sorts of other things for
their own purposes, and we still go after the benefits. Likewise with
So to sum up your position - if man didn't make it for man, it's
Yep. Long gone are the days when a botanist found a new chemical in a rare
plant and everybody scurried around looking for a disease it might cure.
Today, scientists study the disease to find its areas of vulnerabilities and
from there create the chemical that attacks that vulnerability.
I doubt there's been a new drug extracted from plants in fifty years. Or if
there has, the number in that category is vanishingly small compared to
those drugs created from scratch.
You doubt. Well, that's good enough for me! Oh, wait, no it's not.
You're just using a weasel word while you're trying to score points.
Just one more vast area where you have a smattering of information and
a plenitude of opinion.
A very good customer's wife has a cousin who goes into the jungle two
or three times a year and brings back plants for research. He's
nearly died several times from one thing or another, but he is paid
very handsomely by drug companies for bringing back promising
The reason that you wouldn't hear the stuff about plants in the raw is
threefold. Primarily it is because the drug companies are the ones
with the deep pockets, the only ones that can afford to jump through
the FDA hoops over years of submittals and trials, and the only ones
that can fund research without begging from the government. I've also
heard rumors that the drug companies have a new guy, he's called a
"lobbiest", but he may be part time.
The second reason - the drug companies would make no money from a
straight up plant medicinal remedy, because they couldn't patent it,
or trademark it, or control it entirely. When they find something,
they synthesize the active ingredients and then control it.
Third and most obvious reason, you don't listen very well. Your
Google seems to be broken.
but I particularly like this part:
"In a commentary published alongside the study, Jeffrey McNeeley,
chief scientist of the IUCN-World Conservation Union, pointed out that
some bioprospecting efforts have been called �biopiracy,� such as when
a drug company made $200 million in profits selling cancer drugs
developed from Madagascar�s rosy periwinkle while that country �got
And more on biopiracy:
Drug companies have been taking plants from less developed countries
and reaping staggering profits. The countries are fighting back.
Just your usual humdrum run of the mill story of drug companies
playing for profits and not for cures. It's anti-human and absolutely
capitalism in its lowest form.
It seems that the very idea that medicines can come from plants upsets
you. It's really not a threat to you, a threat, I mean, and no one
will force you to take any medicine unless you keep ignoring reality
that doesn't fit in with your preconceived notions.
So...while on holiday all tourists are investigating the properties of
the local flora and fauna for possible medicinal benefit? That seems
like a tall order for a couple or three weeks. When do they find the
time to go parasailing?
The amount necessary to achieve the desired result.
Sorry, I don't understand those two sentences.
"Miniscule" was not the proper word, and for that I apologize. In
homeopathy, the amount of the presumed "active ingredient" is present in
undetectable amounts. The amount of the "drug" is essentially zero and no
known test can find it.
No. Injectable drugs are injectable for a reason and the reason is that they
won't work if introduced in any other manner. That is, if given orally,
stomach acids will destroy them, if attempted as nose drops or suppositories
or some other vehicle, the body will destroy any efficacy long before the
drug can do its work.
And minuscule is way greater than zero.
Ignorance is not a reason to implement anything. If someone has terminal
cancer, no physician is going to say "I don't know if waving chicken claws
over the body while dancing a jig will cure the disease, so let's try it."
You go with what is known to work.
In the case of Homeopathy, there is no instance where it has been shown to
be effective. There are, conversely, hundreds of trials and thousands of
examples in which Homeopathy has been found to NOT work. And "well, it might
work this time" is not a reasonable position either.
Again, ignorance is not a reason in deciding a course of treatment. Those
who administer treatments, however, are NOT ignorant. They do know that
Homeopathy does not work, never has worked, and cannot be made to work. They
know this because the theory behind Homeopathy does not follow the provable
laws of biology or physiology and that thousands upon thousands of
controlled tests have NEVER demonstrated efficacy for ANY Homeopathic
We know a lot more than we did in the late 18th century when Homeopathy was
My more anal retentive side may be kicking in, but there is really no
such thing as a therapeutic amount. There is a therapeutic window being
the lowest dose where you see results and the highest dose where there
are no nasty side effects
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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