Home Electrical Question

[bertrsh]

Can I use a 16AWG x 3 for a 30 foot run to a 220v 20amp breaker?

Details: This is what the installation manual for my wifes new habatchi grill requires. The manual says "This appliance must be hardwired. The mains connecting cable must be at least correspond to the type SJTO

3x16 AWG 105*C" The guys at Lowes and all the old timers say that you can't use 16 gage wire on a 220 breaker. I say this is a new appliance and isnt it possible that someone has designed a way that you can, why would the book call for it?

The tech data states Total connected load: 1500 W, AC 208/220-240 V /

60 Hz.

Now I know the formula for amps is I = W / V. 1500W / 208 = 7.2 amps. The specs for a 16x3 AWG 105*C is rated at 13 amps 250 volts.

So, why is everyone here telling me that this won't work?

Please help....I don't want to burn this grill up, my wife will kill me..

[Speedy Jim]

Is the product UL-listed? If so, the listing will include the required conductor makeup which, presumably, is what the manual is specifying.

You're right; that cordset will easily carry the current and it is rated at more than the maximum line voltage.

Portable cords are covered in the NEC and #16 cordset conductors are "considered" to be protected by a 20Amp breaker.

(I don't understand what they meant by "hard-wired". That might cloud it.)

Jim

[Joseph Meehan]

A 20 amp breaker will not protect the wire if there is a fault at the appliance. Why fight it, pay the extra couple of dollars for the 12 gauge stuff.

[Charz]

Thanks for replying. I really don't want to fight it. I just want to protect the appliance. I wasn't sure if using 12 gage wire was going to let the wire or breaker fail if there was a problem. I figured the 16 gage wire would go and I would much rather replace $30 worth of wire instead of a $2000 appliancet.

I just want to make sure the appliance is proteted.

[Kevin Ricks]

Any wiring on a 20A breaker must be 12 ga or larger regardless of what will be connected to it. A 15A breaker can use 14 ga wires but I don't think you will find a 15A 220V breaker readily on the shelf.

You won't find house wiring smaller than 14 ga. and you can't use bulk appliance or lamp cord for permanent wiring for anything.

I would use 12/3 romex from the breaker to your new electrical box then 12/3 armored cable from the new box to your grill.

Kevin

[Toller]

The appliance should not need any protection; but if it does, you certainly don't use substandard wire to protect it!

Use a 15a breaker and #20 wire.

[Andy]

Andy comments:

The breaker isn't there to protect the appliance, only the wiring in the house...... For instance, a lamp may draw one amp, and is on a receptacle with a 15 amp breaker...... If the LAMP itself goes bad, well, it just goes "poof", but the house stays intact unless the failure causes a short in excess of 15 amps, at which point the breaker will protect the house....

As stated before, however, if you are bound and determined to use a 20 amp breaker, use 12-2 + G wire, and you will be fine.

The appliance cord will burst into flames long before the house burns down.....

Personally, I would use a plug and receptacle and forget about the "hardwired" disclaimer..... Using a 20 amp breaker and 12-2+G to the receptacle, and #16-2+G type SJ (this is extension cord wire) to the hibachi. That way you can unplug the appliance and store it if you like, just like every other appliance that I have ever seen other than full stoves and ovens......

Andy

Andy

[Jeff Wisnia]

Your quote from the manual didn't say anything about breakers or fuses, so I believe it was making a correct statement engineering wise, PROVIDING there was a breaker or fuse of appropriate size at the start of the run to protect that No. 16 wire from overload. And, that device would have to be rated at less than 15 amps, which is not a very standard item.

Methinks that manual may contain a literal translation of text originally intended for units sold elsewhere in the world, without regard for US codes.

I'm not sure that US codes would allow No. 16 wire to be used for a 220 volt circuit "hard wired" in a home. One of the code mavins here can likely tell us.

Jeff

[Charz]

Thanks guys, I understand. I will go with 12/3 romex instead since I can't readily find a 15 amp 220 breaker, only 20 amp. I misunderstood and was thinking of it backwards, that the breaker would protect the grill. Only one more question, I am going to hard wire it in since it is getting mounted in the countertop and is going to be a permenante fixture. The unit came assembled with a 16/3, 2 foot long pigtail for connection. I assume that I will just connect the 16/3 to the 12/3 at the junction box? Is that correct? Should I expect any problems with that?

Thanks again for all ya'lls help, I really appreciate it.

[Kevin Ricks]

If an appliance is to be protected then it must have its own internal fuse or circuit breaker. If not it will rely on the house circuit breaker to prevent a house fire only. Check the wiring diagram to see if your unit has the additional protection.

As far as the house wiring the bigger the better. If you are in a situation where you would have to replace $30 of wire you could also just as easily be replacing your entire house as well. You may also find that your insurance will not cover you. Wire - even 16 ga does not "go" without a tremendous amount of heat/smoke and damage. Kevin

[Charz]

You are correct Jeff, I believe it originated in Germany. the company is Gaggenau and the link to the grill is:

*~VP+421&contentId=6312143

[Jim Redelfs]

No. 12-gauge is required for 20-amp over-current protection.

You must properly size the wire (gauge) to correspond with the circuit protection rating - or vice versa.

[Calvin Henry-Cotnam]

No, that is perfectly acceptable.

In case anyone posts a "20A circuits must use 12 gauge wire" in the context of that 16 gauge piece that comes out of the unit, the code that dictates short sections that are factory-assemled to approved appliances has different sets of rules concerning the ampacity of various gauges of wires.

It the branch circuit it is connected to is protected by a 20 A breaker, it must use 12 gauge cable, but connecting the short section from the unit that is only 16 gauge is perfectly fine.

[Mark Lloyd]

A short in the appliance could cause the wire to overheat, melting the insulation and starting a fire. I've seen that before (at least the melting insulation on 16 gauge wire).

[Jeff Wisnia]

*~VP+421&contentId=6312143>

*******************

Vacation lock

After running for four hours, the appliance automatically switches itself off if it receives no operator commands during this time.

*******************

Can't recall seeing anything like that on a domestic appliance other than the electric blanket on our bed, which shuts itself off about 12 hours after it's been turned on and requires pushing a button on one of the controllers to restart it.

Jeff

[George E. Cawthon]

Hmm. Your level of knowledge of electricity and wire requirements is so low you shouldn't be doing any wiring.

Sure you can use 16 gauge wire. The size of the wire has nothing to do with burning up your grill. You could even use 22 gauge wire, but the wire might burn up (and burned down your house). Nothing you do will make the grill burn up. The point is that you shouldn't be using 16 gauge wire for any house wiring.

Wiring requirements are dependent on state and local codes, not what some manual states is the minimum requirement for the appliance to work. The fact that you don't know that means that you need a lot more knowledge before you wire anything.

[Chris Lewis]

Methinks the he's misquoting the manual or it's not written very well.

Since it mentions North American wire designations, the manual is targetted for North America, and it wouldn't get UL or CSA approval if it specified Sxxx cable for an inwall permanent installation. Sxxx cable is _not_ to be used in permanent wiring.

The manual is spec'ing an _extension_ cord to be used between the hibachi and a 240V outlet.

[Tho, I'd personally prefer to use SOW 14/3, 16ga is a little skimpy for this ampacity in my personal opinion for a heating device at this ampacity, and SO/SOW is heavier duty insulation]

For a permanent in-wall installation, he should be using 12/3 NMD-90 (solid core). Even better: it's cheaper than Sxxx. If the wiring is going to be exposed on wall surfaces, he has to consider conduit.

If he's been confused this way by the manual, I think he needs to read a good book on electrical wiring, or hire an electrician - especially if it's not a straight-forward in-wall installation.

He's going to need to double check whether the thing is four wire or three wire. If it's only three (pure 240V circuit), he can use 12/2 NMD (or 12/2 Sx) - the wire designation usually doesn't count the ground. US wiring designation tend to say something like 12/2 w/g to make it clear that the ground is _extra_. In canada, we don't need to say w/g, because house wire always comes with ground.

[Pete C.]

Sxxx *IS* approved for permanent installations in the US. It is approved for flexible cord drops service a single device as long as appropriate strain relief is used at it's connection point.

Pete C.

[Bob M.]

Hard-wired means "not plugged in", "connected with wire nuts", "not easily disconnected", etc.

[Chris Lewis]

According to Pete C. :

SJxx? Exposed to the sun or weathering? I sure hope not. It don't last too long.