I hadn't thought of the chains. I'll look more closely and try to turn them somehow.
I did try the USB endoscope today but I can't get it to focus on anything:
I also tried the classic flexible magnet tool for picking up objects:
I even tried a powerful shop vac - but this plenum is very complex:
Even with a tiny flexible hose as the vacuum hose I couldn't do much:
This is getting confusing. Did you change anything with the BMW software? Did you even hook a PC up to the car while doing the vcg? If not, then this is a rat hole.
Are you saying you drove the car now with the noise?
Just vibrating in general or vibrating as if the vibration occurs just as t he noise is heard, ie that something hitting is causing it¿
You weren't anywhere near that and even if you did, look at your diagram. T he return path for the pcv vapors is through that distribution thing that g oes across the top of the engine via six small tubes, the size of a pencil. Whatever is rattling sounds too big to have made it through all that. I s ay 99 percent it's not in the intake manifold.
That all sounds right.
There are nooks and crannies on the top of the engine where you were workin g. Have you looked real good, a socket or something isn't let there to rat tle?
You turn the crankshaft from the big nut on the pulley on the bottom front of the crankshaft. Make sure to only go in the normal direction. And don' t forget to take the socket wrench off before starting the engine again.
I'd look at the valve area while someone turns it. Any chance a piece of g asket debris got stuck at a valve stem, holding it open? IDK, seems that w ould produce other symptoms too though.
While it may sound like it's coming from there, I highly doubt anything is in the intake for the reasons previously noted. How many miles on this eng ine? Another possibility would be timing chain problems, but that starting right after the vcg doesn't make sense.
replying to Arthur Wood, Iggy wrote: Sorry in advance, I couldn't resist with a discussion so on point. I don't know why anyone buys or even puts up with German crap. How many decades, models and makes does it take. Truth about BMW e46 M54 engine
Yes. I heard the noise initially but had to be somewhere. That's when it also had no vacuum so I had both problems at the same time. Then I fixed the vacuum (by patching the CCV hose) and the idle came back. But the noise remained. I haven't driven it since.
The vibration, with my hand, does seem consistent with something bouncing inside the intake manifold. I can't check now and I didn't check extensively, but it seemed when the noise was heard, a small vibration was felt.
I agree. I'm grasping at straws. I can't see how the CCV sucked something up either. The DISA is the most likely but it's not missing anything.
I'm ok with that premise because how could anything get in the intake manifold and what would make it bounce around at idle anyway. But then, I have to ask my self what is making that sporadic knocking sound?
I put all my tools away, and no nuts, washers, or bolts are missing, but maybe "something" is in the deep nooks and crannies of the intake plenum. I'll take another look today at least to knock that out - if it turns out to be that, I'd be ecstatic - but I don't see why it would knock about.
I understand. Many things "sound" like they come from place 1 when they are really coming from place 2. The engine is vibrating when it knocks though. Ever so slightly.
150K. That's not a lot for an M54 engine.
Agreed.
I'll see if I can do that. I won't have a help handy for most of the day.
I'm pretty good with my tools, in that I always put them back. I'm also good with nuts/bolts as I put them in the 36-egg egg carton. And I always put back any bolt that I can even when the parts are off so that I don't forget where it goes.
Given I was working there, and given that it's bouncing around, my first assumption (after DISA pin) would be something is bouncing in the valve area. I will see if I can turn the engine with help later in the day.
It took a while after I cleared the codes for the lean condition codes to come back. I suspect the engine wouldn't idle well after I patched the upper CCV hose if a valve were stuck open. And even so, it would throw, I would think, lots of codes and cause an immediate fuel shutoff after just one in 200 RPM (which is the fuel shutoff limit).
So I don't think so. But even if it did stick a valve open, would that make a sporadic knocking sound?
Yes. I will look today with INPA (which is that BMW dealer software), and I'll report back. Given I ran with the bad CCV hose and then cleared it but ran some more, I'd expect a bunch of engine ECU emission codes, but I'll check all the 13 electronic control units again.
No. I only cleared the 13 ECU's stored codes. I saved the old and new files so I have it all.
A lot is in German but I didn't think it abnormal that there are some codes as the "pending codes" in BMW ECUs is different than for OBD codes.
The OBD codes have basically 3 federal test procedure (FTP) drive cycles. The BMW codes have 40 drive cycles. If a code happens within any of those
40 drive cycles, it never goes away. It only goes away if the code never appears in all 40 drive cycles. So, if a code appears on drive cycle #1 and then it appears again on drive cycle #39, it remains in the Electronic Control Unit module's memory.I might install the current BMW dealer software because ista+- gives more information on a code like the description, mileage when code happened, frequency, .... basically the freeze frame.
INPA gives just the code but INPA works with all BMWs. ISTA+- only works with the newer BMWs.
I did not do anything outside of the VCG job except break thing like I broke off the rectangular metal 4-inch cover plate in the back over the wires and hoses that snake around the engine. So many people break that plate that they don't even cover it in any of the DIYs! It's always gone - but this is the original valve cover so my plate was original. It's a plate that everyone breaks when trying to remove it for better access to the rear passenger side corner valve cover bolt where I have the broken plate so it can't be that.
I also broke the CCV hose. And one small clip on the coil-wire combined harness case. Surprisingly the SAS/SAP (secondary air system pump) vacuum hose and pipe didn't crumble in my hands, but that's only because it did long ago like it does on everyone - so it was replaced long ago.
So I did "just" what needed to be done to do just the valve cover gasket. I'm going to do more work today and then put it back together.
Thanks for all the help because I'm at my wit's end and the engine is at stake.
I'll look again at the top of the intake manifold, which does swallow tools and bits because it's so convenient and yet so convoluted.
Maybe some good news. I went looking for videos of people having rattles with the M54. I ran across a lot of the usual stuff, guys saying it's DISA, guys saying it's VANOS, etc, etc. Then I saw one guy saying that if you have a big vacuum leak, the idle control valve goes nuts trying to compensate and the "rattle" is just the ICV. So, you broke that PCV hose, I think you did some temp repair, but what's the status of that? If it's leaking air big time, just maybe the only problem you have is the air leak. IDK, I've never heard an ICV make big noise, but on the other hand, it conforms to your scenario, if that PCV hose is still leaking. Also the noise would be coming from under the intake manifold, that's where the ICV is located.
Thanks for keeping up on this to help me out. The Bimmerfest thread is leaning toward a CCV based on these two videos:
Everyone jumps to the DISA as the problem but I tested mine with the DISA opening blocked off with a block of pine so I know it's not the DISA valve.
I will ask about and look to hear what an ICV rattle sounds like in an M54 engine.
Here is a 20-second MP4 video of me cranking the engine and recording the valves and chains which all seem to be working normally without problem.
UPDATE for today...
I put the valve cover gasket back on and ran the engine for 30 miles with the DISA blocked off by the pine block.
Even with the DISA bypassed by the pine block, the sporadic hard knocking sound was heard but it seems to be *deeper* in the engine now that I'm told it's the CCV doing something weird (i.e., I no longer think it's in the manifold).
So pretty much we've eliminated:
With Pinewood DISA bypass, since the electrical connector was just dangling, I got an expected P1 code, which turned out to be: P1512 DISA (Differentiated intake manifold) control circuit signal low
If anyone wants to make their own Pinewood DISA, I measured the dimensions:
Length = 15.0cm Width = 7.5cm Thickness = 1.8cm (1.6cm for the rear upper hole - where a better thickness would have been ~1.5cm for the entire block) Hole diameter = 1.9cm (mine is tapered because I used a cone drill bit)
Hole 1 centerpoint = 2.7cm from the left side horizontally, 1.9cm from the top vertically Hole 2 centerpoint = 10.8cm from the left side horizontally, 5.4cm from the top vertically
I could be a bad CCV oil separator. Or just the ICV going nuts because of leaking air, which someone else suggested in one of those videos. You didn't answer the question about how well you temporarily mended the hose you broke. But that, plus having wood covering the big DISA hole, there is plenty of opportunity for there to be air leaking in.
What leads me to think it could be the ICV instead of the oil separator is that the oil separator is plastic. I tend to doubt that it could make that metal on metal clank. But the ICV is all metal. One argument against the ICV going nuts and making that noise from a big air leak though, is that I've run the engine with the oil cap off and never heard any clank like you have.
I don't understand why you have wood over the DISA. The only way that makes noise is if it's falling apart. You've inspected it, it's fine and disconnecting the electric cable, if you want, disables it.
But your next step is to replace the oil separator and all those hoses. I looked at the thread over at Bimmer, and as usual, some of those people know what they are talking about and others are giving advice without a clue. For example, someone told you to hold onto the CCV to feel if it's making noise. You can't even get a finger on it without all the intakes system removed, ie the MAF and all the tubing up to the throttle body. Good luck running the engine. Same problem with trying to feel the ICV too.
I gave up with those forums because of people like that. And then you have the 18 year old's who's old BMW is their prized possession that they obsess over and think they are experts. Try to tell them anything, they attack you. I had enough when one time one of these alleged geniuses showed how to change the alternator. He had a pic of the battery cable, live, hanging by a string from the hood, because he was too lazy to disconnect the battery. That was bad enough, but when I tried to warn people how bad that practice was, all the idiots sided with the dope. They actually thought it was perfectly fine to disconnect a live battery cable from the alternator. You've been around that engine, I can't imagine sticking a wrench down there to the alternator, where it's buried, putting it on that live terminal that goes straight to the battery. IMO, that post should have been taken down. But instead, they told me that it was perfectly fine to do the repair that way.
Thanks again for your advice as I really do not know what the noise is yet.
Even though I don't know what it is, I've eliminated a few things. The videos on the net of the E46 M54 sound are the exact same sound though.
Some concluded it was the CCV while others did not. None explained how the CCV could be making that sound though.
But - this is the good news - if it's the CCV - then I can drive the car - where the major risk is hydrolock (which would be fatal, of course).
A PCV overhaul is, unfortunately, a big job on the M54 - and not cheap - but at three hundred dollars or so in parts, the engine won't be destroyed.
Thanks for bringing up the ICV again. I *do* very much have an air leak as my codes are classic on the last drive which are the same codes (save for the extra DISA codes) I had before the VCG repair.
As you know the bimmer, there are MANY hoses which can leak, so what I really need is a good smoke machine. A friend and I built one out of a can and a glow plug where it burns glycerin to smoke and where we put a compressor set to as low as it will go (~2 to ~4psi) to push the smoke.
But it doesn't generate enough smoke. What all bimmer owners need is a smoke machine in the shop! If you know of one in the hundred dollar range - I'd buy it!
I agree with you completely. I'm *sure* there are still air leaks. It's an E39. There are always air leaks. Either where you say (which I don't doubt), or somewhere else (like in the CCV hoses buried in the engine).
I did put back the DISA last night, using the FIPG as a gasket instead of the $10 6-1/2cm o-ring, which I didn't have and you can't just easily get.
I figured I'd let the FIPG cure overnight so I'll clear the codes in an hour or so and then see what comes back. What I really need is a smoke machine.
It's amazing to me that something so simple doesn't easily exist at a cheap enough price to be affordable to all shade tree mechanics.
There is metal inside the CCV but I agree, not much (a spring, I think). The ICV makes more sense, I agree. Plus it's *easier* to access! :)
I will look up how to R&R the ICV. I don't have the gasket handy though, so that's one reason for not wanting to take it off just yet.
The Pinewood DISA is just a diagnostic experiment to eliminate "rattle" from the flapper valve. I agree, it's not the DISA so with or without the wood block, it's still not the DISA. With the FIPG on the DISA round mating surface now, there should not be any air leaks at the DISA.
So I've put back the DISA as it's not an issue (although EVERYONE always says it's the DISA just like whenever you have a cooling system problem, everyone always says it's the thermostat!). :)
Yup. Nasty DIY. Nobody likes it. Expensive too. Hundreds of bucks in parts. All for a stinking PCV valve.
This thread?
Funny you mention that because I didn't respond to the guy because I thought the same thing. I actually tried but I can't even *see* the CCV and I know where it is. It's in the middle, like the heart of the engine. It's just not something I'm going to get my hand on while the engine is running.
I agree with you.
Sounds like Usenet, only everyone here is a curmudgeon! :)
Yikes. Lots of current when that touches ground. I find the forums are iffy - but sometimes you get a good hit like the guy who found the E46 M54 videos of the exact same clicking sound.
At least I know from that there is nothing left inside the engine from the VCG R&R job. It's likely that the clicking sound came only after I fixed a massive vacuum leak (the oil was smoking up the engine it was leaking so bad).
The theory is that the CCV started working when I fixed that one massive air leak. Of course, it could be that I broke the CCV when I shoved in the repair hose also. Either way, the CCV is original so at 15 years, it's well past time to replace it.
It's not. The electronics on this car are SUPER sensitive. Why risk it?
For a twist of the 10mm nut on the negative battery cable terminal, which is nicely designed to access with a ratchet and a 10-inch extension, it's just not worth the risk.
I've replaced the alternator and the two mechanical tensioners, and the idler pulley, so I agree. I had to rip out a lot to get to it - but that was a few years ago. It's hard to get the "B" terminal back on, as I recall, because it has a lip protecting it, as I recall, but it's not something I'd ever risk with the battery in.
I agree with you.
Thanks for sticking with me. At the moment, I'm compiling all the o rings and hoses I have to get to do a CCV job. Most people say it takes them all day so it will take me all weekend as I take lots of pictures and go slowly and put all parts in their respective places and put all tools back each time I use them so they're always in the same spot all the time.
I'm not those guys who ask and leave. I'll be back - but there may be no news until the parts come in and I have a weekend to work on it. My biggest danger now is the hydrolock potential (I'm not sure I understand how though).
The next thing I need to do is get the vacuum leak sorted out which I'm sure is in a hose somewhere (maybe even the CCV hoses).
My biggest lament is that there should be a cheap (hundred dollar range) effective smoke machine out there. All it has to do is blow thick smoke at three psi which doesn't seem all that hard to do.
AFAIK, it's not fatal, just a big pain in the ass to cleanup and fix.
It shouldn't be more than $75 or so for the parts as long as you use aftermarket.
Those fuel control limit ones probably indicate that it's a big air leak. I've only seen the first two when it's a typical smaller one.
I've seen where people were buying smoke machines made for discos, the cheap versions, that sell for $50 or so. Maybe you can google for people using it.
I'd say fix the stuff you know, ie overhaul the CCV, before worrying about anything else.
The point is that there may be nothing wrong with the ICV. It could just be responding to a big air leak and once that's fixed, no more clanking. Fix what you know is wrong.
It should be under $100, that's all it cost me.
I don't think you had a massive air leak until you broke that hose.
Of course, it could be that I broke the CCV when I shoved in the
Yep, that's for sure.
It's really not that bad. You do have to work the couple screws that hold it on totally blind, by feel. There is at least one good youtube video that I used, might have been from Pelican Parts, not sure. The guy shows the two different locking connectors and how you have to position the CCV, twist it, to lock it. When you get the new ones, spend time familiarizing yourself with how the two main hoses connect to it. They lock on differently as I recall. You have to do those by feel too.
I doubt that will happen. It's rare, takes a special failure mode. And the stupidity of the BMW engineers to put the return line for the oil below the level of the oil in the pan.
Well one you repaired with tape or something, right? I would think that could be leaking for starters.
See my comments about the disco smoke machines. I think they sell them on Ebay. You'd need to make an adapter to be able to connect it. I've never done it, just saw that some other people had.
It seems like you should probably engage the services of a mechanic who has the first clue what he is doing, unlike yourself.
Seems like the go!
Now that wasn't nice! ;)
We do have a mechanic that works for us at the plant that is very good with a hammer and grease gun, maybe he'll suffice! ;)
Jamie
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