Subject: Have you ever heard THIS SOUND inside your engine? URL:
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Nobody on Bimmerfest knows what is causing this noise and I can't use the car until I figure out how to figure out what the noise is.
This only started after I did some work this weekend on the valve cover but it sounds like someone left a socket inside the engine and it's bouncing around somewhere.
I'm pretty sure I didn't leave anything inside where this sounds like it's in the intake manifold but it's hard to figure out where it's coming from as it's intermittent.
It sounds like it's coming from the top of the engine somehow but it's hard to place where.
You should not need a login to read that thread and download the videos.
Here's just an audio file:
When you download them, remove the *pdf which I added so that the MP4 would look like a PDF to the forum upload GUI.
I can't imagine what is making that noise which is why I'm asking you for how to debug that noise. Thanks!
The only time I've heard a similar noise is from crank throws hitting cam lobes. It was when I rebuilt a 352 and reinstalled the spacer used for the old timing gear. The new cast iron timing gear had the that spacer cast into the gear. That allowed the cam to travel in the path of the throws. It was intermittent until the cam bearings wiped. Otherwise, your theory is as good as mine.
replying to Arthur Wood, Iggy wrote: None of the links worked for me and my fiddling around with them. But, if it's sounding like something's loose and damaging everything in its path, then you'll have to get back in and re-do your valve cover work. Maybe a 3/8's to 1/4 ratchet reducer, short extension, hex bit, rolled-up tube of Threadlocker, etc. got left behind. Even though it's a BMW, I can't imagine you accidently and unknowingly created a problem...unless your valve cover work included removing the PCV or slopping in RTV that clogged venting and the sound is pressure blowing the seals.
I think you know what needs to be done. Remove the valve cover. Other than leaving something in there, what other possible explanation is there? I would have shut the thing off after the first 5 secs.
All you did is the VCG? You didn't take off the VANOS or fiddle with it, for example? There isn't anything that's involved that could make a noise like that other than a tool left inside or maybe screwing the VANOS.
I'm not a mechanic. I'm just a guy with tools and a 15-year-old bimmer. So I *need* your experience - which I do very much appreciate!
I was hoping it was the DISA pin in a way, because that would be easy. But I removed the DISA and it's not that. What do you think will happen if you bypass a DISA valve (longer term)?
Yes. Plus I broke a critical CCV hose in half. It just crumbled in my hands. Is it feasible to replace just the broken upper CCV hose to the Valve Cover?
Nope. I know a lot of people replace the VANOS seals with the $60 kit which comes with two o rings made out of Viton instead of Buna. The VANOS does nothing below about 1K RPM and it shuts off around 3K RPM where in my M54 engine it controls the intake and exhaust cam advance separately.
Since I don't have any symptoms of VANOS o ring failure, I didn't opt to do the VANOS at the same time as the VCG. So it can't be the VANOS.
There must be something inside. Although the sound seems to come from the intake manifold, since it sounds like metal on metal where the valve cover is plastic (I know because I cracked it by dropping it).
Some Macintosh users wrote to me in the web forum PM system saying they couldn't change the name of the file.mp4.pdf back to the original file.mp4 name.
I don't know how to tell you how to do that on the Macintosh but I did just now ask on the Macintosh groups.
Are you on a Macintosh?
Hopefully the answer will be in this thread if someone knows the Macintosh. Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?
The probative thing here is that there was no noise before you did the VCG and now there is a terrible, loud rattle. The odds of that coming from something other than what you just did are miniscule.
I've driven an X5 for tens of thousands of miles with it disabled. The biggest issue is the part disintegrating and getting sucked into the engine. Whether it works or not, IMO, doesn't matter. It's like an appendix, a lot of trouble, but no one knows WTF good it does. It tunes the intake at different RPMs to boost performance. On a dyno, you probably do get a few more HP. But in the real world, I've never been able to tell any difference with it working or disabled. It's one of those over engineered dumb German ideas, IMO.
No loss there, if they are in that condition, they should all be replaced together with the oil separator, another BMW German engineering dumb idea.
If you mean the one that goes across the valve cover from front to back, yes. The one that goes to the oil separator, theoretically you could, but at that point it's so much work any sane person would do all the hoses and the oil separator. You can get them as a kit. There is also a replacement dipstick tube available. The original was another abortion. It connects to the oil separator to allow the oil to drain back into the crankcase. But it does so via a second, small passageway inside the dipstick tube. That get clogged up with mayo, so instead of draining, the oil winds up burned. The new tube has a bigger opening, I guess. IDK, I just cleaned mine out. This is an issue in colder climates, in FL probably not as much of an issue.
I did mine. Like I'm sure you've seen, lots of people saying it needs to be done, the original seals are no good, etc. When I did mine, the old seals did have a little play in them, but I don't think it was a problem. I don't think enough oil could leak through so that it would not work. I replaced them, didn't notice any difference. Everything was OK before and after. You can get them for $20 or so on Ebay. If I had it to do over again, I'd just skip it. If the VANOS isn't working, you're going to get an error message.
Oh no, that's not good! It can be hard to pin down exactly where a noise is coming from. But given what you did, the obvious first place to look is inside. Not that bad, you know how to do it, everything is cleaned up, you can reuse the new gasket, etc.
replying to Arthur Wood, Iggy wrote: Just Internet Explorer 11 on a real and secured PC. Don't worry about it, trader_4 says its definitely a chunky foreign contaminant. You'll have to take it apart again or have it towed to the shop.
I updated the thread on bimmerfest but I also have pictures for you below. I'm stuck.
It's not the DISA because the DISA is intact and removed. It's not the VANOS because I never touched the VANOS. It's not something left in the valve area because I opened it up again. There's something in the air intake plenum bouncing around.
But how can it bounce around? And how can it get in the air intake plenum when I only opened up the VC?
Here are some pictures. But I don't know what the noise is. I have a boroscope being delivered later this afternoon but that BMW M54 plenum is like a spider web.
Here are the pictures for you to see what the heck is bouncing around!
The DISA is the main suspect but it has all its parts!
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I even fashioned a DISA replacement out of a piece of pine.
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And I bolted that pine to the engine and the noise was STILL there.
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Surprisingly the pine sealed as the engine idled fine without the DISA.
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So I ripped off the valve cover again even though I just put it on.
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All the bolts and washers and nuts and grommets were accounted for.
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The valve cover underside doesn't show any nicks from anything bouncing.
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Could a piece of the gasket have gotten from the valves to the intake?
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I don't see any evidence of nicking on the valves or the metal inside.
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The noise seems to be coming from the air intake plenum tubes.
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I was pretty neat about buttoning things up because this is my very first valve cover gasket job (disaster).
What I just don't get is this: Q: How can anything get from the valve area into the air intake plenum?
What else can I look for? (I may have to remove the plenum in which case I'll replace the CCV.)
No. Nor could a piece of gasket material make that sound.
There is no way possible that I can conceive. You said you broke one of the PCV hoses. Even if something got in there, I don't think you were working with the one that goes into the intake manifold. That's the one that goes from the oil separator up to the top of the engine and connects to that distribution manifold that runs from front to back. It then distributes the crankcase fumes into the intake through half a dozen or so tubes. But those tubes are pencil size. I don't see anything of size getting in there, no matter what you did, even if that's the one you broke and I don't think it is. I think you broke the one that connects to the valve cover, right? Even if something go in that open hose, it would wind up stuck in the oil separator, not make it to the intake.
Maybe you should review for us exactly what you did when replacing the VCG? Because from my recollection, the only open part of the engine during the process is when you take off the valve cover and expose the camshafts. And again, the engine was running fine, normal, no noise right before this? As I recall, all you have to do is take off the vanity covers from the top of the engine, remove the coils, get some wires for the O2 sensors out of the way, remove the nuts holding the valve cover on, and remove it. Then it's clean it up, put in the new gasket, re-assemble. You sure all the nuts, washers, etc are accounted for? I don't think you have to take the spark plugs out, you didn't did you? If something got in there, that would make noise. Nothing you did other than the VCG?
I very much doubt there is anything in that intake manifold because there is no where for it to come from and nothing you did had any of the intake involved.
I listened to it again. It's not totally random. It almost sounds like a chain snapping on a sprocket. Any chance a piece of gasket got stuck in the timing chain? You'd think it would just get spit out, but I'd take a look for any signs of debris on the chain or sprockets. You could also put a socket wrench on the main pulley and crank the engine by hand, while someone watches what's going on with the valves and chain. Just make sure ignition is off and you crank in the right direction. Another long shot. do you have any of the BMW diagnostic software? It might be worth a quick look to see if it's throwing any fault codes that could be a clue. Any chance that sound was there already, before you did the VCG, but you just didn't notice it? Seems unlikely, because it's pretty loud, at least with the hood open, etc.
Perhaps you changed something that controls ignition action? Like, something is changing the spark timing and it is now far too advanced? Spark knock? Maybe? hmmm....
You seem to know bimmers well. This is an E39 with the M54 engine.
I agree that the sound seems to be metal on metal. Also the intake manifold vibrates when the sound is heard.
Maybe I broke something metal in the CCV way down below which then got sucked into the intake? (I don't see how this could happen but *something* is making that noise!)
The CCV, as you know, is immensely complex for a stinking PCV valve.
This is the CCV hose I broke (it's patched up now just fine temporarily):
But maybe I broke something deep down in the CCV itself, which does have two hoses that go into the intake manifold. Here is the diagram.
The M54 CCV, as you know, is immensely complex for a stupid PCV valve:
Here are the parts placement for the CCV hoses:
It's true. I broke the hose where the air is going DOWN into the CCV.
That's it. I did nothing else. Just the VCG. The VCG R&R steps were simple.
Hands: Remove passenger side cabin air cover large rounded tube Hands: Remove oil filler cap Hands: Disconeect oxygen sensor wires Hands: Remove breather hose to the plastic cover at the CCV hose Flathead: Remove four caps in plastic BMW engine cover
10mm socket: Remove bolts holding engine cover Flathead: Pull up to open ignition coil retaining clips Hands: Disconnect plugs on ignition coils
10mm socket: Remove two coil retaining bolts per coil
8mm socket: Remove center ground strap Flathead: Unclip coil pack wire harness as a group Hands: Mark and remove coil packs in order
8mm socket: Remove front and rear braided grounding straps
10mm deep socket: Remove 4 center stack bolts
10mm deep socket: Remove 11 bolts around outside of valve cover Putty knife: Gently pry valve cover up Hands: Remove VCG from cover by pulling straight up (not to the side!
Yup. I even recently bought the K-line/Dcan USB cable and downloaded and ran the INPA software only last week, which as you may know, is the same software the BMW dealer used when the E39 was born to diagnose the software. I installed INPA/EDIABAS, which all the bimmer guys use. I also have ISTA+ which is the current BMW dealer software - but it's not installed on my Windows laptop because I don't have a newer model BMW.
All these 13 electronic control units were good when I checked for fun: ECU: MS430DS0 (engine) ECU: GS8604 (transmission) ECU: DSC57 (traction) ECU: LWS5_1B (steering) ECU: IHKA39_5 (heating/ac) ECU: MRS4 (airbag) ECU: SZM38 (centerswitch) ECU: IKI (cluster) ECU: EWS3 (alarm) ECU: LCM_III (lights) ECU: ZKE3_GM1 (windows) ECU: ZIS (audio) ECU: RADIO (radio)
Yup. The VCG is an easy job, even on a bimmer (except for the diabolical German connector on the upper CCV hose and one bolt in the back corner).
Yes. Definitely. Not a single part is missing. Not one is missing.
Here is a picture of them in the 36-egg Costco egg crate I use for bolts.
Spark plugs were not touched. VANOS was not touched. CCV was not touched other than I broke the upper hose. Nothing was touched other than what was needed to do the valve cover gasket.
Here are all the pieces taken out for example (which were hard as rocks):
I am probing with a 6-foot lit endoscopic USB camera as we speak but the focus on the camera is really lousy.
Interesting observation. I hadn't thought of the chains.
There are two camshaft chains, one for the intake & one for the exhaust.
Certainly they are exposed.
Do you think I can safely "bump" the engine with the valve cover off and the coils out?
I appreciate the advice because "something" is making that noise. I can't figure out what - but it must be something - somewhere - somehow.
I could try that as I have the special waterpump wrench set like most bimmer owners do (two pieces of long thin metal wrenches) which I used to replace the cooling system long ago.
Like most bimmer owners, I have the same software that the BMW dealer has which is described here: Making sense of INPA, EDIABAS, NCSExpert, NCS Dummies, DIS/GT1, EasyDIS, & Progman
I just recently bought the #23 K-Line USB to OBD cable on Amazon.
I bought the cable because I went through a puddle and the transmission gearshift under the floorboards got soaked so the transmission went into safe mode (aka limp mode, aka trans failsafe mode). The switch that screws up the transmission when it gets wet is #9 in this realoem diagram.
The only way to get the automatic ZF 5HP19 (5 speed, helical planetary, model 19, A5S325Z 5-speed 325 newton meters ZF) steptronic transmission out of safe mode (stuck forever in 3rd gear) was to clear the codes using INPA/EDIABAS. Debugging Trans Failsafe Prog - car won't shift into gear
As you probably know, that's the same software the BMW dealer used when the E39 was born - and it was used up to about 2006 - but I also have ISTA+ which is what the BMW dealer uses today I think (but I haven't installed it).
Of course, it's half in German and half in English - but you know that.
The reason I was doing the VCG was not only the oil leak but I was getting the classic lean condition codes that all bimmers get all the time.
I have a decent OBDII scanner in addition to the INPA BMW dealer software:
I have lots of the dealer software other than INPA but haven't used it yet:
I will check if there are codes with INPA, but there should be a lot since it was running without the CCV hose for about 30 miles.
Yes. You are correct. There *is* a chance the sound was already there. It couldn't have been there a long time - but I only hear it when I have the hood open. I don't hear it with the hood closed. Certainly I don't hear it when I'm in the cabin driving (I don't hear anything inside the car).
SO it might not even be related to the VCG job - but it still has to be
I hadn't thought of that, where I did recently install the BMW dealer software of the era when my car was new called INPA which allows me to read all the electronic control units and reset the codes for all modules (not just OBDII modules):
Some of this BMW dealer software can also program each module but I didn't run any of that, and it can reset something called the "adaptations", again, which I didn't touch to my knowledge.
I should be able to get the spark advance out of the dealer software though
My OBDII reader shows spark at 6 degrees advanced at idle and then it jumps to 20 and 30 degrees in the live data as I drove - where I don't actually know what it's supposed to be. I don't even know where that data is.
I have heard spark knock before where it sounds like marbles under load. This doesn't sound like marbles. It sounds more like one marble.
I hadn't thought of that, where I did recently install the BMW dealer software of the era when my car was new called INPA which allows me to read all the electronic control units and reset the codes for all modules (not just OBDII modules):
Some of this BMW dealer software can also program each module but I didn't run any of that, and it can reset something called the "adaptations", again, which I didn't touch to my knowledge.
I should be able to get the spark advance out of the dealer software though
My OBDII reader shows spark at 6 degrees advanced at idle and then it jumps to 20 and 30 degrees in the live data as I drove - where I don't actually know what it's supposed to be. I don't even know where that data is.
I have heard spark knock before where it sounds like marbles under load. This doesn't sound like marbles. It sounds more like one marble.
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