Hanging frameless kitchen wall cabinets

[desgnr]

What if i have a 12" wide cabinet in the run & there is no stud behind it ?

[RicodJour]

On a small cabinet without a big load, some people will just hang it off of the cabinets on either side, but the safer way is to open up the wall behind the cabinet and install blocking between the two studs. The access area will be hidden by the cabinet, so it's simple and fast enough.

R

[aemeijers]

12" can usually get screwed to the cabinets on either side, and be strong enough. If they makes you nervous, before you hang the cabinets, cut out a strip of drywall all the way across before you hang the cabinets, and lay in a strip of 1/2 " plywood (NOT OSB), and screw that to the studs. Position it so the cabinets will cover it, of course, and if the crack isn't tight, cover it with tape. A 12" strip across the top will probably be plenty- that is what takes most of the weight.

-- aem sends...

[JIMMIE]

Thats the way I hung the last ones I did. I also cut a 3/4 inch wide piece of plywood and fastened it to the wall. This was used as a cleat to sit the back of the cabinet on during installation and was supposed to be temporary, A decision was made to leave it there. That was OK since the cabinets were made to take lights on the bottom and the cleat could not be seen.

Jimmie

[RicodJour]

Along those same lines, you can decide to hang the whole run of wall cabinets on French cleats. There are a couple of minor caveats, but it's a great system, self-leveling cabinets, ease of installation, ease of running wires, etc.

R

[benick]

[benick]

I know it is too late for the OP but if you are redoing your kitchen or building a new home it makes things ALOT easier if you put 1/2 inch plywood(NOT OSB) on the walls with cabinetts then hang sheetrock over that..Ofcourse if you know exactly where the cabinets are going BEFORE you sheetrock you can add solid blocking but just tossing up a few sheets of plywood is easier.....FYI....

[DerbyDad03]

Hmm...that solution sounds interesting, but....

(This isn't criticism, just thoughts that came to mind.)

If I don't know where my cabinets are going, then I'd need to make sure the plywood covered all of the wallspace where cabinets might go, maybe even floor to ceiling.

That makes installing receptacles/switches - after the fact - a little more difficult. Let's say I come along later and want to add a receptacle for a new appliance. I'd have to cut through both the drywall and plywood to create the hole. Not a major hassle, but certainly more work.

What would be interesting is what would happen if I moved and the

*next* homeowner wants to make changes. (S)he might be searching all day for studs/open spaces without knowing that there was a sheet of plywood behind the drywall. That would be fine to watch! ;-)

Of course, if I didn't do floor to ceiling (which would probably be overkill) I'd have to add a 1/2 of drywall wherever there wasn't plywood to keep the surface flush.

Somewhere there's a break-even between using all 1/2 ply and the additional 1/2 drywall required.

[benick]

Hmm...that solution sounds interesting, but....

(This isn't criticism, just thoughts that came to mind.)

If I don't know where my cabinets are going, then I'd need to make sure the plywood covered all of the wallspace where cabinets might go, maybe even floor to ceiling.

That's how it is done and when I asked why I was told it was for the cabinets...No matter how many times the homeowner changed their mind it would be covered was the reason .....I just put the rock over it and see it OFTEN....

That makes installing receptacles/switches - after the fact - a little more difficult. Let's say I come along later and want to add a receptacle for a new appliance. I'd have to cut through both the drywall and plywood to create the hole. Not a major hassle, but certainly more work...

Not much more work....Besides Most people think ahead and have plenty of outlets above the counter the first time and messing with the tile backsplash is where the work is...

What would be interesting is what would happen if I moved and the

*next* homeowner wants to make changes. (S)he might be searching all day for studs/open spaces without knowing that there was a sheet of plywood behind the drywall. That would be fine to watch! ;-)

Red Herring..Why would you need to find studs with nailer EVERYWHERE...Got a one ton papertowel holder you need to hang...LOL.....Any major changes to a wall covered with cabinets would require removing them..Then it would be very apparent as to what is going on and all you need to do is find one stud and you've got them all......

Of course, if I didn't do floor to ceiling (which would probably be overkill) I'd have to add a 1/2 of drywall wherever there wasn't plywood to keep the surface flush.

Most do the whole wall but I have seen just the strip that shows between the bottom and top cabinets done with drywall and the rest plywood with seams hidden behind the cabinets and I've seen the whole wall just plywood and the area between the cabinets tiled...No drywall...Oh , and tile backer on the strip in between and plywood top and bottom with seams hidden behind the cabinets sometimes as well...Cut thru that to put your outlet in...LOL...

Somewhere there's a break-even between using all 1/2 ply and the additional 1/2 drywall required.

Depends on the value of your TIME I guess....Cabinets would go up REALLY quick with no worry screwing and the wall would be ALOT flater and less wavy....

[RicodJour]

A few observations:

- adding a layer of 1/2" CDX won't flatten a wall. Both drywall and CDX will follow whatever is going on with the framing.

- locating one stud, to locate them all, works fine if you have a house that was never remodeled and is a relatively 'new' house (less than 100 years). Otherwise it's a total crap shoot guessing where the studs are.

- a hanging rail, like IKEA uses for their cabinets, is the evolution of the French cleat, and is far superior in pretty much all aspects. It's faster to install cabinets, trivial to remove them if you want to get access the wall behind them or want to remodel, and you don't have to cover a wall with plywood when you really only need the 'extra' in a few select places.

- tiling on top of plywood is a hack in almost anybody's book.

I don't make a big fuss over it because it's so easy to open up drywall and insert/attach blocking if it's all going to be covered by the cabinets. I wouldn't _argue_ if someone were to think ahead, but I don't expect it and, well, things change.

R

[JIMMIE]

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[RicodJour]

Google 'cabinet hanging rail' and check the images. There are a number of options, some requiring cabinet modification (holes for the bracket to protrude through) some not. There are some inexpensive Z- shaped extrusions in aluminum that I wouldn't trust for loaded cabinetry. Here's one that is strong enough:

place will send you some free samples: R

[DerbyDad03]

Benick,

I don't know what kind of newsreader you post with, but typically there is some kind of character preceding the text from the post you are responding to.

In the post where you responded to my comments, your text is mixed right in with mine with no way to tell who said what.

May I suggest you figure out what is going on so that your responses are easier to read?

Thanks!

[DerbyDad03]

re: "Red Herring..Why would you need to find studs with nailer EVERYWHERE."

You missed my point. Let's you or I put up the 1/2" ply and then covered it with drywall.

Now, the new homeowner wants to hang that paper towel holder you mentioned. Did you disclose in the purchase contract that there is plywood behind the kitchen drywall? I know I didn't.

The point being that you and I know that there is nailer *everywhere* but the next homeowner wouldn't nor would any contractor that came along later.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I simply pointed out that it could confusing to someone trying open up the wall.

[benick]

A few observations:

- adding a layer of 1/2" CDX won't flatten a wall. Both drywall and CDX will follow whatever is going on with the framing.

- locating one stud, to locate them all, works fine if you have a house that was never remodeled and is a relatively 'new' house (less than 100 years). Otherwise it's a total crap shoot guessing where the studs are.

DUH...We ARE talking about a new or remodeled homes...And your bullshit observation that plywood doesn't flatten out the wall is well , just that , BULLSHIT...Ever see a ceiling that wasn't strapped compared to one that was ???

- a hanging rail, like IKEA uses for their cabinets, is the evolution of the French cleat, and is far superior in pretty much all aspects. It's faster to install cabinets, trivial to remove them if you want to get access the wall behind them or want to remodel, and you don't have to cover a wall with plywood when you really only need the 'extra' in a few select places.

- tiling on top of plywood is a hack in almost anybody's book.

Not everybody has IKEA cabinets with french cleats...Never heard of them personally so can't comment beyond that...Don't know about tiling so I will defer to others who do know...Have seen it alot though...Same for tile over drywall for a backsplash....

I don't make a big fuss over it because it's so easy to open up drywall and insert/attach blocking if it's all going to be covered by the cabinets. I wouldn't _argue_ if someone were to think ahead, but I don't expect it and, well, things change.

Yea it's always easier to do things 2 or 3 times...Especially if wires or plumbing are involved....LOL...

R

[benick]

re: "Red Herring..Why would you need to find studs with nailer EVERYWHERE."

You missed my point. Let's you or I put up the 1/2" ply and then covered it with drywall.

Now, the new homeowner wants to hang that paper towel holder you mentioned. Did you disclose in the purchase contract that there is plywood behind the kitchen drywall? I know I didn't.

The point being that you and I know that there is nailer *everywhere* but the next homeowner wouldn't nor would any contractor that came along later.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I simply pointed out that it could confusing to someone trying open up the wall.

I did not do the plywood bit in my house.....Haven't got to changing the cabinets , if I ever do...They are custom built Birch and in pretty good shape....It was just my observations from hundreds of jobsites I have been on doing the drywall...I said that in my OP....As far as the paper towel holder...You put it where YOU want it...No stud or plywood , you use a an anchor...As far as the next homeowner or contractor goes , once they poke a hole it will be apparent what is going on considering how common it is...Atleast around here.....I don't know what's up with the reader...never done that before...i'll check it out...

[RicodJour]

Strapping is not plywood. Strapping is most commonly shimmed to correct for defects in the flatness of the ceiling joists. Strapping is also a) a regional thing, and b) far less common with engineered floor joists due to their uniformity and straightness. If the strapping is not shimmed, then the strapping will just follow the framing, like the CDX would, and you'll have exactly the same situation with an out-of-plane framing job.

Your background is in drywall, right? I'm a little different - I do it all. From the initial contact with the customer to turning over the keys. I'm hands on at every point of the project. The only trades I sub out on most jobs are HVAC and electrical.

I get frustrated with some of the lag in adopting superior construction practices. 32mm Euro-style cabinets are still resisted in the US by many people, and I'm not sure if it's industry not wanting to retool, or people liking what they grew up with, but 32mm cabinets are superior to face-frame cabinets for most reasons.

Hanging rails are standard for cabinets in Europe and they're an evolution of French cleats, which I'm guessing originated in France (and I'm sure elsewhere as it's an obvious solution). They solve many problems and have no real drawbacks.

Yep, I know. Tiling is one of those things that gets slapped up by a lot of people, including people who call themselves professional installers.

I can install the, what?, three or four pieces of blocking that would be required in an average kitchen, faster than someone could cover a wall with plywood, the cost would be a lot cheaper, I can use scrap wood, I won't be changing the wall depth - which affects window and door trim, eats into floor area for no reason, complicates future work, etc. I've also found that saying, "Okay! That's it! NO more changes." doesn't always work. If something needs to move, it needs to move.

I don't see the harm.

R

[Tony]

About your news reader, just look above this and you will see that your reply has 1 > in front of each line. The problem is that the post you replied to also has only 1 > in front of each line, so it's hard to see where your post starts and the previous one ends. I think it's been that way for a long time but no one mentioned it. Now if you reply to this post, then once again it's the same problem. Where does my post end and yours start? There will be no >'s added in front of each line in my post. I see you are using "Microsoft Windows Mail". Maybe someone else who uses that can help you out. It's only a matter of a setting in your mail/news reader.

[aemeijers]

(snip)

Not sure who wrote what at this point, but I did see Google Groups ins some of the 'from' lines. Their web interface is notorious for not handling attribution delimiters well, on reading or replying. When visiting relatives, I have to use GG for Usenet, since they don't want news set up on their PCs, and that has bit me in the butt before.

-- aem sends...

[DerbyDad03]

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