Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

If you are having trouble intrepreting: All grounding electrodes including Metal Underground Water Pipe shall be bonded together to to form the grounding electrode system that establishes an electrical connection to the earth.

What do you think it means?

Can you read?

bud--

You're the one who has trouble reading, not me. I never said that metal water pipes shouldn't be part of the grounding electrode system -- I said that metal water pipes are not permitted to be the *only* grounding electrode, and that's a fact.

It's also a fact that the reason for bonding metal water pipes to the other grounding electrode(s) is to ensure that the plumbing cannot ever become live, no matter what might go wrong with the electrical system.

Sorry you're having such a hard time understanding.

More explaination...

EC&M

Beyond the 2005 NEC Changes: Art. 250 Grounding and Bonding By Steven Owen, National Code Seminars

Code Quandaries By Mike Holt, NEC Consultant

Underground metal water pipe [250.52(A)(1)]

Metal frame of the building or structure [250.52(A)(2)]

Concrete-encased foundation or footer steel [250.52(A)(3)]

Ground ring [250.52(A)(4)]

Ground rod [250.52(A)(5)]

Grounding plate [250.52(A)(6)]

The intent of the change to 250.50 (wording changed from "if available" to "are present") and the addition of the exception was meant to require the use of concrete-encased foundation or footer steel as part of the building or structure grounding electrode system in new construction (if they are present), since they are considered "present" before they pour concrete.

Randy

Your fact is not consistent with what you said: ?The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,

I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system" can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate* grounding electrode."

bud--

It's real simple: the water pipe is bonded to the other grounding electrodes, not to provide a ground for the electrical system -- that's what the *other* electrodes are there for, remember? -- but to ensure that the metal water piping is always at the same potential as the electrical system's ground and therefore cannot become live no matter *what* might go wrong electrically.

I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time grasping this... but you really need to spend a little more time educating yourself before you post again.

Particularly clear info on Ufer ground in new construction. Thanks

To me this wording is clearer than "concrete encased electrode", which to me implies that connection to the steel has been made available. Nothing else in the list is named as an "electrode".

IMHO the code should make this even more explicit. Good requirement though.

"250.50 Grounding Electrode System. If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.

Now who is it that needs to educate themselves?

I hope you're not contending that metal underground water piping is permitted to be the *sole* grounding electrode...

Geez, *another* one with reading comprehension problems. I have never disputed that metal underground water piping is required to be part of the grounding electrode system.

The whole argument is over *why*.

Is your position on why so as to keep it at the same potential as the other electrodes? Yes or no no dodging.

My position on why is that it is the best electrode available on premises served by large underground metallic water systems. In a building with no internal metallic plumbing supplied by a utility that requires copper laterals; many do; why do we still need to connect the Grounding Electrode Conductor to that piping. How is it to become energized in the absence of interior metallic piping? Why does the code require that the portion of the GEC that is the connection to the underground metal water piping be sized according to the table rather than limited in size like the one to the Concrete Encased Electrode, Ground Ring, Driven Rods, and so forth. It is because it is a superior electrode to any of those others. How many Grounding Electrode Systems have you measured for impedance to ground? How many have you installed? I cannot answer such questions my self because I lost track decades ago. In areas served by metallic public water systems I've never found an electrode with a lower impedance to ground than the metallic water service lateral from the metal water mains. That includes the ground rings and genuine Ufers installed at radio stations and the deep driven rod arrays installed at telegraphic fire alarm receiving stations.

I guess you haven't been following the thread too closely, because I've stated that quite explicitly a number of times -- even quoted a portion of the NEC Handbook that says exactly that.

I think he is likely trolling.

or maybe he is a member of w_'s grounding cult.

bud--

Thanks Bud. I try to remember not to wrestle with pigs. You just get filthy dirty and the pig enjoys it.

most of the discussion is on gas piping outside the house. It would be a g ood idea to electrically bond the internal gas piping - that is the piping that is downstream of the gas meter - to the electrical ground electrode. The reason being that if the gas piping is energized it can conduct electri city same as water pipe. Typically the gas appliance ground will suffice, but if there is an overvoltage from a transformer surge or lightning, the h igh impedance of the appliance ground wire doesn't provide a low impedence path to ground. For most CSST, the gas piping MUST be bonded to the electr ical ground. So to answer your question:

- Is it required by code? YES but the appliance ground is usually used as the bonding means, so that satisfies the code.

- Is it recommended? YES especially if you have CSST or flexible appliance connectors.

- Wire size? Most use a 6 gage bare grounding wire - stranded if its availa ble.

- Daisy Cha> When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as

Interior piping is required to be bonded where likely to become energized and this normally happens via the EGC in the equipment served. Water pipe shall be bonded using table 250-66, the same as any other ground electrode. (ie: 4ga for a typical 200a service)

replying to blueman, John wrote: Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel.

Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded to the electric system ground.

The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters. As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code.

I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system.

Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect. What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected to any appliance, it's partially exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't easily touch it, then it's a no? I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's a yes.

CSST comes with it's own problems. Hard steel pipe only presents an electrocution hazard, they are afraid lightning might actually blow CSST open if you get an arc. (Hence the black stuff that is arc resistant) I really do not have much experience with it because the state did not use it at all. Everything was galvanized rigid gas pipe.