Piss off the inspector and see how many things suddenly fail inspection..... Keep in mind the electrical inspector knows all the other inspectors and one little Nextel beep can cause you enormous amounts of grief.
Steve B.
Sorry, I think you have a moron; but as someone pointed out, he's the inspector. I put an addition on my house that removed one window from a bedroom. The remaining window provided only 90% of the required ventilation. Since the house had central AC that was pretty irrelevant, but I had to spend $500 to put in a window 2" wider. (Maybe a bribe would have been cheaper?) In otherwords, while I would ask him to specify the code section you are in violation of, you will probably have to put in a ground rod.
William Deans wrote:
William As you can see by reading the section below the underground metal water pipe must be used as a grounding electrode. The piping is grounding the system rather than being grounded. If the interior water piping were metallic and the underground supply piping were not you would still have to bond the piping to the grounded service conductor. Bonding connections can be made at any convenient point in an interior metallic piping system. A grounding connection to underground metal piping must be made close to were the piping enters the building in order to reduce the chance of the grounding connection being isolated from the underground piping by later changes in the interior piping system. The conductor that is used to ground the grounded service conductor to the water piping must be number four AWG copper. The fact that it is over forty feet away is just tough luck.
250.50 Grounding Electrode System. If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these electrodes are available, one or more of the electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(7) shall be installed and used. 250.52 Grounding Electrodes. (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding. (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system. (5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less than 2.5 m (8 ft) in length and shall consist of the following materials. (a) Electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not be smaller than metric designator 21 (trade size 3/4) and, where of iron or steel, shall have the outer surface galvanized or otherwise metal-coated for corrosion protection. (b) Electrodes of rods of iron or steel shall be at least 15.87 mm (5/8 in.) in diameter. Stainless steel rods less than 16 mm (5/8 in.) in diameter, nonferrous rods, or their equivalent shall be listed and shall not be less than 13 mm (1/2 in.) in diameter.This next section covers how the Grounding Electrode System is installed. As you can see it requires that the underground metal water piping be supplemented by one other electrode to guard against the possibility that the continuity of the underground metal water piping will be broken by future plumbing work.
250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation. FPN:See 547.9 and 547.10 for special grounding and bonding requirements for agricultural buildings. (A) Rod, Pipe, and Plate Electrodes. Where practicable, rod, pipe, and plate electrodes shall be embedded below permanent moisture level. Rod, pipe, and plate electrodes shall be free from nonconductive coatings such as paint or enamel. (B) Electrode Spacing. Where more than one of the electrodes of the type specified in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(6) are used, each electrode of one grounding system (including that used for air terminals) shall not be less than 1.83 m (6 ft) from any other electrode of another grounding system. Two or more grounding electrodes that are effectively bonded together shall be considered a single grounding electrode system. (C) Bonding Jumper. The bonding jumper(s) used to connect the grounding electrodes together to form the grounding electrode system shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E), shall be sized in accordance with 250.66, and shall be connected in the manner specified in 250.70. (D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. Where used as a grounding electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2). (1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment. (2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(7). Where the supplemental electrode is a rod, pipe, or plate type, it shall comply with 250.56. The supplemental electrode shall be permitted to be bonded to the grounding electrode conductor, the grounded service-entrance conductor, the nonflexible grounded service raceway, or any grounded service enclosure.The point of attachment of the Grounding Electrode Conductor is a local matter. Some electric utilities require that the connection be made in the meter enclosure while others specifically forbid this. Some utilities require that it be connected to the grounded service conductor immediately adjacent to the demarcation point. For an overhead service the demarcation point is the splices between the overhead service drop, which is owned and maintained by the utility, and the service entry conductors, that are owned and maintained by the building owner.
I hope that this answers your question if you have more just ask.
-- Tom H
Greetings,
You are right. I thank everyone very very much for their help. This is the post which clearly shows me the requirements set forth by the NEC requiring me to run an additional 40 feet of grounding wire in parallel with a 3/4" copper pipe to within 5 feet of where the water pipe enters the building. I am still a little worried about the inspector's "six feet" "ground the water pipe" wording but I am going to try this and see what he says when he comes back.
You guys are great, William
Greetings,
As it turns out if you have metal water pipe available it "shall be bonded ... to form the grounding electrode system" and "interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system".
William
Thanks to Tom H for the following ==================================
250.50 Grounding Electrode System. If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these electrodes are available, one or more of the electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(7) shall be installed and used. 250.52 Grounding Electrodes. (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding. (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.
Greetings,
It's too bad you don't own your own property in (at least some parts of) America and you couldn't instead use the $500 to take your family on a nice weekend vacation.
William
Greetings,
In this case Electrical impedance will be higher by routing the current through a 4 AWG wire instead of the lower impedance 3/4" Cu pipe. That doesn't mean it isn't why the rule is written that way-- only that in my case it shouldn't matter.
William
Greetings,
I think the inspector probably should have said five but said six instead because he made a mistake or was unsure of the distance. I don't believe he was giving me an extra foot to be nice or that local code allows for the extra foot. The real disservice that the inspector did was knowing the code too well to explain it to me in a way that I understand. He was not willing to take the extra second to rethink his "ground the water pipe" wording and to point me to the sections of the code I was in violation of. I am not dense and I want to comply with code. I try very hard to ensure that everything I do is up to code and I don't like having to fight with code to try to determine how to make a building code compliant when it is their job to ensure that buildings are code compliant. How hard would it have been for him to quote me a couple sections of the NEC so that I have a better understanding of the rules so I do not make the mistake again? I know someone is going to probably say "not his job" but it's my tax dollars and I would like to think that fostering a better understanding of the code is his job.
Also, the inspector cannot interpret the code beyond a point. Otherwise he would simply interpret the code to mean that you must pay him $100 cash right this instant. There is a review process -- it is just heavily weighed in their favor.
Just my two cents, William
Greetings,
What you say is true about him being able to give me six feet instead of five if he wanted to ... in this case I think it was probably a mistake.
William
PS: I am going away for a long weekend. If I cannot respond to more posts it doesn't mean I won't read them when I get back or that I have clamed up.
Yes, it does, and it has for quite a while.
"Interior metal water piping located more than 5 feet from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a conductor to interconnect the [grounding] electrodes and the grounding electrode conductor." [1993 NEC, Article 250-81]
You're missing several key points here.
First, the NEC *defines* the local inspection authority as the authority on what's permitted in that jurisdiction:
"The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code will have the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules... " [Article 90-4]
Note also the Code's definition of the word "approved" as used in the Code: "Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction."
Second, the Code is *voluntary*. It has no force of law until a jurisdiction adopts it as the governing electrical code within that jurisdiction, and when they do so they are free to enact by law whatever exceptions or extensions to it that they please. Your *local* code may very well be considerably more restrictive than the NEC. If you have questions about interpretation of the Code, refer to the portion of Article 90-4 quoted above.
Third, the inspector knows the Code much better than you do, particularly with respect to what exceptions or extensions may be in force in his jurisdiction. You have *no* idea whether he's "making up code as he goes along."
Fourth, you don't want to piss him off by suggesting that that's what he's doing, or he may decide to go *looking* for Code violations that need to be corrected. He won't have to make any of those up, I guarantee it. I have yet to see *any* house that doesn't have some violations in it *somewhere*. If the inspector starts looking for them, he *will* find them. And you'll have to fix them.
Fifth, the Code says "within 5 feet." The inspector is allowing "within 6 feet". Quit complaining already.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Water pipe is *never* permitted to be the *only* grounding means.
"A metal underground water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in Section 250-81 or in Section 250-83." [Article 250-81(a)]
Since it's quite clear that you are not familiar with the Code, may I respectfully suggest that you stop arguing with your electrical inspector?
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Yes, there is. Article 250-81(a) in the 1993 Code (which is all I have at hand at the moment) *requires* that metal water piping be bonded to the grounding electrode system. Whether or not you "want" to use the water pipe as part of the grounding electrode system is immaterial: the Code *requires* it.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Actually, he knows it a lot better than you do!
Note that the Code also says that it canNOT be used as the ONLY electrode.
Right so far... but you missed the part where the Code says that "The interior metal water piping system SHALL BE BONDED..." [my emphasis] to whatever grounding means is used for the electrical system. In other words, if the house has metal water piping, you *must* make the connection, *and* that connection must be within 5 feet etc etc.
The NEC specifically permits local authorities to make interpretations and exceptions. The inspector is well within the Code by permitting 6 feet instead of 5. Perhaps YOU need to "get enrolled in a continuing ed program and stay on top of things" before dispensing advice on subjects you know little about.
You apparently don't know the Code very well at all, or you would realize that the Code *defines* the local inspectors as having authority to interpret what the Code means.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Yes, it does. You can't meet the requirements of the Code by grounding to water pipe located 40 feet from the point of entrance to the building because the portion of the pipe between 5 feet and 40 feet is SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED from being used as a conductor for that purpose. That's exactly what the article quoted below means.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Article 90-4, paragraph 2: "The authority having jurisdiction may waive specific requirements in this Code or permit alternate methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved..." It appears that the local inspection authority has decided that six feet is good enough.
It's also possible that an older version of the NEC said "six feet", not five, and this jurisdiction adoped that version and hasn't updated since.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
If you do that, he'll require you to install a bonding jumper around the plastic.
See point four in my earlier post, about not pissing off the inspector.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Why the six-foot rule? Electrical impedance, that's why.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Hi Tom,
I just wanted you to know that I found out that you were correct concerning the need for a ground rod in a separate building. I recently attended some continuing ed. classes to maintain my license and both instructors brought that issue up in class without prompting from me. It turns out that it is a common misconception even among professionals that the equipment grounding conductor alone will satisfy the code requirements.
As for William Deans; If he had spent half as much time installing that grounding conductor on the water pipe where the inspector told him to instead of wasting time trying to find an excuse not to, he would have a nice, safe, code compliant grounding electrode system. I wonder if the inspector told him to bond the gas pipe also?
John Grabowski
I doubt very much that the inspector was unsure of the distance, or made a mistake -- and you have no basis for supposing that the local code doesn't allow for the extra foot. As I pointed out in another post, it's very possible, perhaps likely, that the governing ordinance in your jurisdiction is an older version of the NEC in which the requirement *is* 6 feet.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
I'm a Firefighter / Rescuer (FF/EMT) for my community and I have responded to four different electrical injuries caused by bad grounding. Two of those were working codes and one of those didn't make it. I am only one EMT out of the thousands that serve in the nation so I cannot believe that such occurrences are as rare as some of you seem to think.
The impedance of two eight foot ground rods driven only the requisite six feet apart is often over fifty ohms. The impedance of the underground metal water piping is usually less than ten ohms because it is part of a network of underground piping that interconnects the neutrals of all the electrical services in the area. There are still many water utilities that do not permit plastic piping for service laterals. It is your electrical inspectors job to know if yours is one of them.
If you loose the low impedance underground metal water piping grounding electrode a plumber or water meter mechanic kneeling on a concrete basement floor may well have a low enough impedance to suffer an injurious or fatal shock.
It only takes thirty volts to overcome the skin resistance of a healthy adult and it only takes ten milliamperes to cause a fatal cardiac dysrhythmia called ventricular fibrillation. If the neutral service conductor does fail 120 volts is imposed upon the grounding electrode system. The resultant current flow divides in proportion to the impedance of the electrodes that make up the grounding electrode system. If the plumbing pipe connection has been broken by alterations or repair a human in contact with any part of the grounding system could well find themselves in deadly danger.
-- Tom H
What if the entire home is PVC or PEX, and the service is Plastic as well? It seems this inspector wants it on both. Or did I read into the first post something not there?
Rich
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