fence issue with neighbor

[Robert Green]

I knew it sounded familar. My favorite part of BZ was the recruiting speech:

[trader4]

The problem is there is already a bad outcome. She has a neighbor that doesn't give a damn about her or her property rights. The neighbor has trespassed and piled debris on her property after specifically being told not to do so. They even threw it right against the house. They lied about putting a tarp down to keep it neat. No way I would ignore that and let some skunk walk all over me.

Yeah, I suppose if you have a toxic waste dump on your property. Or you're parking your car on the neighbor's property without permission. But if you call the police to get the skunk neighbor to stop trespassing, they aren't going to search your house.

Sure, be a pussy and let a neighbor trespass and use your property to store construction debris on, instead of their own. Not in my world.

The problem of course is that she doesn't have a "good" neighbor. A "good" neighbor would not have done what this one just did. So, the problem already exists. The only remaining issue is whether you want to be someone who lets someone walk all over you or if you are going to stand up for your rights.

[trader4]

The issue isn't if the neighbor is a moron, a dufus, or arrogant. The issue is the neighbor has trespassed on her property, piled dirt not only on your property, but directly against the house itself, when told specifically that she would not allow them to do so. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it either. But I'll be damned if I'm going to be a pussy, do nothing and not stand up for my rights when someone is violating them and sticking a finger in my eye.

Just "keep your eyes

The more people like you let skunk neighbors get away with crap,' the more they do it to everyone else. As for the neighbor helping Leza out with the fence, etc, given what I've seen already, that is likely a pipe dream. Someone reasonable and decent would not do what that skunk neighbor just did. These people take, take, take, do what they please, because they obviously don't give a rat's ass about anyone else.

[Lonesome Dove]

Bb with a C6th or an E9th steel

** Lonesome Dove

[Stormin Mormon]

The conversation is way off bass. The offending neighbor should slip a tenor, and that would hit the right note. No reason for this to reach a crescendo, as long as they are octavely trying to reach harmony. Sadly, they are off to a sour note. If I'm in tune, I can hear the discord. My humor goes a bit awry, no off-fence intended.

. Christ> >

[Lonesome Dove]

But it does have a certain rhythm to it.

** L>The conversation is way off bass. The offending neighbor

[micky]

That isn't proven but it does seem reasonable. OTOH, the more n'bors don't fight with the selfish n'bors, the less the latter get a gun and kill a bunch of people. It's hard to judge the effect on society of one act.

Leza certainly didn't help things. The owner came over to her, as one should, and asked if he could put the dirt there, and she said no. I would have said Yes. Sure, she had a legal right to, but she's the first obstinate one. (apparently, never mind how much extra work it would be in that small space to do it without using her land)

And the notion that they would be making a mess on her property strikes me as silly. This stretch of land didnt' have any grass or bushes, or even paving stones, afaict.

That they may have piled dirt against her house... so what? When most of the dirt is shoveled back in the hole, the garden hose or the rain will wash away any dirt that's sticking to the wall.

[Ashton Crusher]

[Stormin Mormon]

You got me beat, there, that's neat, fair.

. Christ> But it does have a certain rhythm to it.

[Jon Danniken]

Go out tonight and take a dump in the hole where they work, and cover it lightly with enough dirt so it is not readily apparent, but not so much that it is buried.

Whatever animosity you feel towards them now will dissolve away when you see them working the next day.

Jon

[trader4]

I see. So, on the chance that one in a million neighbor's is a total nut case, we should let everyone trample all over us. By the same theory, if I'm robbed, I shouldn't report it, because the robber might retaliate. Hell, I guess if I hire a contractor and they don't finish the job, I shouldn't do anything about that either, because they might come back and burn my house down.

Never mind how much extra work it would be? How about if it's really not much extra work or even no extra work at all? Leza said it just meant they didn't have to take the dirt to the front of the neighbor's house. Like rolling a wheelbarrow a few feet further and dumping it on the neighbor's own property makes for some extraordinary amount of work? And if it's an extra two man hours of work, that's what $50? For $50 on a $1000 job, she's "obstinate" because she didn't want the mess on her property? Good grief!

Oh, and for all you "just let them go on doing what they're doing" folks, how many of you have been the first ones to tell people that they should not allow any workmen on your property without them proving they have insurance? But now it's OK for a neighbor to send over some half-assed workers who probably aren't insured and Leza is being obstinate? When they trip over a tree root in her yard, slam their head into concrete foundation and sue her, then what?

Look, it's fine if you want to let someone piss on your head and then make all kinds of excuses about why it's OK, like it's really just like rain or you needed a shower anyway. But me, I'm not putting up with someone trying to pull it with me.

[Robert Green]

To me, it's still a *seemingly* bad outcome until it's all over and they haven't restored my property to the pre-work state. My late mom, whom I loved dearly, was of the same mind as you. She had the best-maintained property in the neighborhood and didn't tolerate anyone even letting leaves blow onto the lawn. Life was hell, culminating in the great "Dead Squirrel in the Road" incident.

I agree that someone blew her off and dissed her. Was it deliberate or a communications error or even a worker being told what to do precisely and doing something else? My experience is that until you're absolutely sure, you should assume error and not malice.

No toxic waste dump but it turns out nearly everyone around me got cited for something. Trash cans not properly secured, parking violations and a number of things no one really cared about until the "Great Parking War" began. Now cars are getting keyed and the animosity rate is through the roof. This stuff only feeds on itself which is why I tend to make damn sure I am the victim of a malicious act before I go off and start making serious trouble. As I believe Wes noted, don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity or alcohol.

I've seen the pictures of Leza's home - there's not much room to store anything. I think you said it a while back about tree removal. This is not quite - but almost - a case of exigent circumstances. Not enough room to maneuver. Besides, I grew up watching the 50's westerns where the guys in the white hats always made sure the bad guys deserved what they got. Maybe it means turning the other cheek while you're unlocking the safety on your Glock, but if I have to lower the hammer on someone, I want to be absolutely sure they deserve it. *especially* a family member or a neighbor. This case doesn't rise to what I would consider "deserving of a dropped ammer" - yet.

I submit that you can't tell that from a single incident. You can lean strongly in that direction based on what's been reported here. As a former reporter I can assure you that the other side will probably present a very logical, non-malicious reason why they did what they did. Even if this intrusion went to a *real* court, and not Judge Joe Brown, you would *have* to have given them a reasonable chance to restore your property before you could collect on the cost of having it done yourself. When the judge asks Leza "What did it say in your written agreement about the work?" where will she be? She'll be in the capital city of the land of "very reasonable doubt." It's already a case of "he said/she said" and we only have the "she said" said as no one wrote anything down, with a "writing" being the gold standard of deciding who breached the agreement.

This is only a burned potato, not a tragedy, and the workers and the neighbor still have an opportunity to set things right. More importantly, Leza's learned it might not be a bad idea to hammer out some sort of written memorandum any time "cross-border" work needs to be done even though I think that's a bit much.

While I wouldn't escalate, nor call the cops (they *really* don't like being the heavies in neighbor fights) I would make sure to bake that cake Vic suggested and deliver it along with a conversation about how concerned I was that they didn't do what they told me. I would find out why what happened, happened as it did. If the neighbor wasn't malicious, he'll apologize, if not, well revenge is a dish best served cold and if you know me, I've said repeatedly "If you want real justice, don't call the cops, just take care of business."

No one has ever "walked all over me" but I learned from some pretty smart people to "pick my battles." I also learned that like family fights, spats with neighbors have a much greater downside at almost every turn than they have an upside. I get the feeling a lot of other posters here have made that same discovery.

This was a screw-up that needs resolution, I will agree to that much, but I think the investigation's incomplete and if this guy's an ass, there will be no shortage of opportunities to draw down on him for *something* because it will happen again. I always like to reconnoiter before striking at an enemy. Unless it's a drunken neighbor babbling incoherently and pointing a high-powered rifle around in a threatening manner. That's a scenario I hope never to have to face but if I have a clean shot and he's already fired off a round, he's getting all 14 from me.

She has a questionable neighbor at this point. If he's really a bad one he will not clean up satisfactorily. *That's* when I would start the hard line approach because I've lived with angry neighbors and happy neighbors and I prefer the latter. I believe that's particularly important when your neighbors are so close you can spit on them.

I want a neighbor that can phone me if the van interior light's stuck on, who will share their generator with me during outages, who occasionally borrows my Sawzall but always returns it with a package of new blades, who keeps an eye on my house when I am away and whom I can trust to pick up my mail or even hold a spare key. I'll agree, this neighbor doesn't sound like one of those, but one incident does not a profile make. He could be a good guy with a bad crew.

I am guessing that unbeknownst to Leza, she was communicating in sign language and even if she said "should we attack Mexico with nuclear weapons?" they would have said "Yes, yes!"

Part of any binding contract is a "meeting of the minds" and I am just not certain that's occurred here.

[trader4]

Even if they do restore it, they still disregarded your refusal to allow them to use your property. That is already a bad outcome because it will effect the relationship for years, possibly forever.

My late mom, whom I

I never said that I would not have allowed the neighbor to use my property to pile their dirt on. None of us know the full situation here. We do know that Leza said that if they didn't pile it on her property they would have to move it farther, to the front of their own property. We can't see exactly how far that is or what it entails, but it doesn't sound like it's difficult or that it's going to add some huge expense to the project. It's probably 25 ft. To decide, I would have to know all that, plus what my relationship with the neighbor has been like. If it's really necessary and I have no reason to dislike the neighbor, etc, then I would have allowed it. But I would have insisted on a signed release from both the neighbor and the contractor making me not responsible for any injuries that may occur, stating that everything must be put back to original condition, etc.

The problem, as I see it, is that isn't the situation. They asked, Leza clearly said no, and they went ahead and did it anyway. That's already a bad outcome.

Here is what I would have done. Upon finding this, I would have gone and talked to the neighbor and asked them to explain themselves. What they said, how they acted, would determine what I would then do. If they were contrite, apologetic, and had a decent story, even if it was a lie, I'd probably tell them they could continue, provided they signed the release outlined above.

But if they ignored me, or gave me any attitude, then I'd tell them that until they show me proof of insurance, no one is to set foot on my property again or it's trespass. And with the proof of insurance, they have

24 hours to get the dirt out and put everything back as it was. IF not, I'm having it removed and sending them the bill.

It's 100X more likely this is caused by a neighbor who just doesn't give a damn, as it is by one that's stupid or drunk. And being drunk or stupid isn't an excuse.

That isn't what she said. She said they could have put the dirt on their own property, it just required moving it a little farther.

Besides, I grew up watching the 50's westerns where the guys in

That is simply not true. There is no reason you have to let someone who damaged your property have a chance to fix it. Someone hits your car. Are you going to let them try to get the dent out? Or pick the body shop to do the work? You're confusing that with cases where you hire a contractor and the job doesn't come out to your satisfaction. Then you usually are expected to give them a chance to correct it, but even that isn't absolute. If, for example, what they have done is so sub-standard that it shows they are totally incompetent, then you can refuse to allow them to try to correct it. But when someone trespasses and dumps material on your property, you're under no obligation to let them correct it.

When the judge asks

What written agreement? It's highly unlikely any contract she has with the contractor says anything about where the dirt is going to be piled. And even if it does, that's between her and the contractor, not LEza.

She'll be in the capital city of the land of "very reasonable

There was no agreement with the neighbor.

OMG. They shit in your hat and you bake them a cake? This is actually kind of funny, because I've asked you before what you would do with some of the world's bad guys, like the Taliban after 911. I asked if instead of bombing them, you'd send them a cake. Well, here it is!

BTW, how's that cake approach working for Obama with Putin?

I would find out why what happened,

I prefer to deal with the here and now where Leza is 100% in the right, rather than make up some half baked thing later.

I always like to reconnoiter before striking at an

You can already see that the contractor threw dirt right against her house. No tarp, which they lied about. And also, besides the neighbor, if you were the contractor, wouldn't you have talked to the neighbor before piling dirt on their property, regardless of what the other homeowner told you?

*That's* when I would start the hard line

Yeah, but it's a bit odd that this has apparently been going on now for awhile. Leza has talked to the contractor. The neighbor has eyes and ears. You would think the neighbor would be over there apologizing with that cake. That's how it works in my world.

Of course it didn't occur here. There was no agreement. She explicitly told them NO.

[TomR]

Leza,

So-o-o-o...., what was the outcome?

[hrhofmann]

On Friday, August 9, 2013 2:42:55 PM UTC-5, leza wang wrote:

tween our house and neighbor. None of us build the fence. We bought the hou ses and the fence was/is there. The neighbor are now doing waterproof the b asement. So they are digging the area close to fence. They asked me if I wi ll allow them to move the dirt to my place (just easier than moving to the front of their house). I said no (I do not want to get all the mess, they a re hiring unprofessional workers and this has been going for 4 weeks. These workers do not have even the right tools to do the job). Anyway, yesterday we were away when we came back we saw the fence boards are removed except the frame and the dirt moved to our backyard! (see pictures below please). I expressed my disapproval strongly to the workers because the owner/neighb or was not there. The workers said you are neighbor and you should help etc and they promise to removed it today and said they put blue tar underneath so my backyard will be clean after. I was angry with them because they did not take my permission but then I said OK fine because I want to keep good term between us. Today they said they can not remove the dirt and need ano ther day. They asked kindly so I said that is ok but I want it to be remove d tomorrow. I have the back of the fence (if you can see from the picture). It seems the person who lived before my current neighbor built the fence b ut not sure. Who really own the fence now? can each of us do anything with the fence without telling the other if they can do this or that? Thanks a l ot.

(my house is to the Left) http://tinypic .com/r/25g9bol/5 (my house is to the Right) (my house is to the Right)

Leza,

You have had many responses, how about updating things?????