Electricity consumption

[David Nebenzahl]

On 3/14/2011 6:43 AM Steve Barker spake thus:

Usually known as an odometer ...

[clare]

And the vast majority of "urban" drivers drive less than 20 miles a day. At a lot less than 30 MP

[clare]

ANd heat and AC just reduce the range - all Teslas have both.

[HeyBub]

Nope. In my town, the average commute is 21 miles.

And we only ranked 15th. Car commuters average 100 minutes per day (milage unknown) If you use your car to commute, take a short hop for lunch, and pick up some day-old fish for dinner on the way home, you can easily hit the electric car's endurance limit.

Then you're stuck with a dead car and a very dead fish.

[gfretwell]

I bet it doesn't do both at the same time. If you go fast, I bet you don't go far.

We still have not heard what the A/C and the heat does to the battery but when you consider a car AC is about 1.5 to 2 tons of air and the heater is around 85kBTU they either have a wimpy HVAC system or your battery will not run very long.

[Kurt Ullman]

But given the current set=up of the electrical grid in the US, all you are doing (or likely to do over the next 20 years or so) is move the pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestack. That source is not likely to be hydro, etc., in most places in the US.

[Kurt Ullman]

I'd like to see the studies. Most of them that I have looked at tossing around those figures usually look only at commutes and not all the other messin' around that has to be done. Another part of the electric car that is being ignored is the likely lifespan. Something like 60% of cars and trucks in the US are 6 years and older, with the highest single group (38.3%) over 10. Electric cars are going to need about $4000 worth of new batteries ever 4 or 5 years. No way is anybody going to do this more than once (even if the costs go down substantially, it just won't make sense to put such a high percentage of the cost of a new one into the old one). I have yet to see anyone (either fer it or agin it) take into account the environmental costs of tossing cars out more quickly, or for that matter, the environmental costs of just replacing the batteries. And that doesn't even begin to address the costs associated with fewer older cars being available to the poorer groups who tend to drive the older cars.

[gfretwell]

That is the "HVAC penalty" for speed (more air flow over the skin) It doesn't say what the base load for A/C is. The guys with A/C units on big boats would have a better idea of that but they all use generator sets, not batteries. Heat is another issue. That one is simple. 1KWH = 3400 BTUs and if you are planning on electric heat, you better wear a snowmobile suit if you live up north or you are not driving very far.

[gfretwell]

They want those people to ride the bus. Only rich people should have cars and they should be very expensive. That is the plan.

It is why the cult religion of "environmentalism" is a rich person's folly.

[Kurt Ullman]

You have a cite on that?

[Kurt Ullman]

Not that electric motors are more efficient, but that the pollution would be less. Especially if we have to add more generation capacity to cover the added electrical needs (which if you have a study on that part, too, I would appreciate it.

[Kurt Ullman]

I can see scenarios where that could occur. Which is pretty much why I ask the question. If for no other reason that just because they are more efficient as a group, doesn't necessarily mean that they will be in a specific application.

[gfretwell]

It is a couple of horsepower (electric). In a car they say it is a cylinder (your 6 becomes a 5 with the AC on) but the typical car AC may not be as efficient as a totally electric one. Your typical car AC is also about a ton and a half or two tons so you could probably compare that to what a home AC of that size uses. The reason they use so much Ac is to be able to bring a 130 degree car down to a reasonable temperature in a reasonable time but the shorter the trips, the more that is important to you. Heat may actually be a bigger issue since this will be pure resistive electric. I suppose they can scavenge a little heat from the motor and battery pack.

[gfretwell]

I am not sure that will always be true. The modern IC engine is pretty clean and we still have a lot of dirty coal plants. Scientific American did a study on this about a year ago. It looks pretty ugly for an electric car in the upper mid west.

You also have a lot of losses between the generation source and the end user. Most overhead transmission lines are literally too hot to touch, just from the I2R losses. It is more expensive (financially, politically and NIMBY wise) to put in more lines than it is to eat the losses.

[notbob]

Where!?

I jes saw 'em at True-Value. $49! Not a mark-up, either. Price boldly printed on factory package.

nb

[krw]

Only the ruling class should have cars (and dachas).

Except that they haven't figured out that they won't be part of the ruling class.

[gfretwell]

They want to eat the rich.

We saw this in 1917

[HeyBub]

Here are more than 25 for less than $5.00, and about 200 for less than $25.00.

[clare]

My VERY low tech, 8 battery conversion was good for 50 miles at city speeds. If I was doing it today, the same batteries would give me at least 70 miles. Higher tech charging would also cut my charge time significantly, allowing"opportunity charging". And it would cost me a bit more than the $2000 my old fiat cost.

[clare]

Au cantraire, mon frere, since there are no transmission or engine issues, replacing batteries several times in the life of the car makes perfect sense. And it CAN still be more economical than an ICE vehicle.