Electrical code question

It would be news to me ... but I will wait for a cite.

That section has a change bar -- suggesting to me that it is new or changed for

Thanks, but... Article 551 applies to recreational vehicles. I'm pretty sure I saw something requiring it in homes, too, but I'm darned if I can find it.

Maybe I was just having a brain fart...

Section 410.4(D) addresses this situation directly for lights, and it is new or modified in 2005. It says in part "Luminaires . . . shall be . . . listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray." Perhaps the manufacturers typically require GFCI protection for a wet location?

The only other thing I could think of is article 680, which applies to "hydromessage bathtubs". But I haven't read that article.

Cheers, Wayne

what difference does it make? I'd ASSume that you have a GFCI recep in the bathroom anyway, easy enough to move the wires around in the wall box and seems like a good idea to me. Or is your GFCI not in the same box as your wall switches?

nate

Kudos, I wasn't thinking about RVs. That rule (GFCI in an RV shower) has been there since the 80s. The "bullet" at the bottom of the change bar indicates deleted text followed, in this case "The switch for shower luminaires (lighting fixtures) and exhaust fans, located over a tub or in a shower stall, shall be located outside the tub or shower space." That somewhat revised language was moved to 551.51(B) because it refers to switches, not luminaires

The fan unit is usually labeled as such if it is required. Look on the nameplate or in the installation instructions.

wrote: ...

Oops. My bad. I can only find a GFCI requirement in RVs not in manufactured homes, or regular houses. I might guess that there is no such requirement, but after one error, I will be silent.

Yes...

Light switch, fan switch, and GFCI are in three different boxes on two different circuits (light and fan together, GFCI separate).

Yes, the fan is so labelled. I'm trying to find the applicable provisions in the Code.

If the fan is labeled to require a GFCI it may just be covered by

The requirement could come from UL. And there are requirements from UL that may not be included with devices but are still enforcable. The connection temperature limits of 110.14-C were in the UL "Green book" before they were in the NEC, but were fully enforcable under 110.3-B. You might be amused by the UL "White book" which has that kind of information:

I agree with John and Bud. I pulled the paperwork out of a Broan unit to see what it said. It just said listed for use over a tub when protected by a GFCI, but didn't mention a specific NEC listing. I think that if there was a listing, it would mention it, and I don't find anything in the book. It may just be a CYA on the part of the manufacturer

That is the asnwer to a lot of things that are not clearly spelled out in the code. If the installation instructions/labelling say you do it, the NEC says you do it.

Where this process collides is with "classified breakers" but we don't need to kick that tar baby here ;-) I have seen it almost come to a fist fight if the Cutler Hammer salesman and the SqD salesman are in a room.

But I like tar babies.

Maybe with some encouragement from you there could have been a fist fight - or at least arm wrestle to see who is right.

I presume you mean breakers from CH that have been tested by UL and listed for use in SqD panels. The SqD panel label does not include CH breakers as acceptable. CH listing should trump SqD label?? Are there other issues?

That pretty much sums it up. C/H has gone as far as to come up with their own label to put in the SqD panel saying their breaker is OK.

For your amusement -

I looked up bathroom fans in the UL "White book" - they are on pfd page

The text includes: "Fans intended to be mounted over tubs or showers have been evaluated for such purposes and are marked 'Acceptable for use over a bathtub or shower when installed in a GFCI protected branch circuit.?"

So

- all new fans that are acceptable over a tub will have the 'GFCI' label

- an inspector can tag any new fan over a tub that is not on a GFCI

- an inspector can tag any new fan over a tub and on a GFCI unless it has the label

Even though information with a fan may not indicate it is not acceptable above a tub, the information in the "White book" is part of the listing and enforceable under 110.3-B.

I suspect the "White book" is available to download free to make this kind of information readily available to inspectors. I'm sure Greg falls asleep every night reading the White book.

Just another example of the problem of knowing what can be used.