Do 3-way X10 Switches Need A Load To Operate Properly?

You betcha. I set up a reminder for this time next year. (-;

Reply to
Robert Green
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are from the west. The fixture(s) that fail are on the SW corner, the one that

It doesn't take much to corrupt the seals on stuff like this (assuming they were ever watertight to begin with). From the site comments, I suspect they're not well weather-sealed.

That's about as much as you can hope for other than a post-mortem autopsy on the failed lamps looking for moisture or spider eggs in the motion sensor or some other evil force.

What are the parameters? If the lights don't fail on normal switches that X-10 was at fault?

If they are screw-base I have seen fixed dimmers (called bulb life extenders) that are like a small poker chip that goes between the bulb and the socket. The ones I've seen drop the voltage just enough to preserve the filament longer that normal usage. Might give you the few less lumens you are looking for.

Reply to
Robert Green

"Stormin' Norman" wrote in

Agreed. He's often quite razzable and I try to accommodate his razzability. (-:

Reply to
Robert Green

Not X-10 specifically but *dimmers* specifically. Lots of folks - including apparently the manufacturer - say I shouldn't be using dimmers with motion sensors.

This site says a "A 100-watt bulb will now operate at 58 watts with PowerDiscTM, thus reducing energy consumption. However, light output is reduced. If it is important to maintain the visible light level, a higher wattage bulb should be used."

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Hard to say if the output will be reduced too much for my liking and a higher wattage in the same style is not available, AFAIK. Still, it's something to look into. Thanks.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

They are diodes. They don't drop the voltage at all (except for.7 volts across the junction). They just cause no current to flow for every other half cycle. Not sure what affect they might have on how a particular motion detector works.

Reply to
Pat

I can't see how these would impact a MS. They go in the bulb socket, which is typically after the MS.

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Reply to
DerbyDad03

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Reply to
DerbyDad03

It doesn't work if you snip the joke.

Baiting...hook...get it?

Reply to
DerbyDad03

They would only affect the motion detector if it relies on AC current flow to power itself (like the X-10 dimmers do). A diode in series with the load might not affect that at all, but I can imagine a design where it would.

Reply to
Pat

:-)

Reply to
Stormin' Norman

On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 3:17:20 PM UTC-5, Stormin' Norman said something similar to this:

That comment was on my mind because I'm going to buy a new fixture, along with some standard 3-way switches, on the way home from work.

How the heck would the manufacturer know that the device was fried by a dimmer? I seriously doubt that they have technicians test the fixture to determine the cause of the failure before they send me a new one/issue a refund. Even if they did, could they possibly determine that it was a crappy sine wave from an X10 device that killed the MS?

That's just a random thought related to corporate responses. I'm certainly not looking for an answer to my questions.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

Must be a slow day at work..... ;-)

Reply to
Stormin' Norman

You walked into it! Every hear of "fish or cut bait?" I cut the bait. (0:

Reply to
Robert Green

You're welcome. I recall seeing others that just dropped the voltage to 100 VAC or so. Of course, that was about 45 years ago so there may have been some changes made. (-: I think you might find other makers of such "dimmers" that don't drop the light output by nearly half. As I recall they touted the difference in brightness as negligible since they were "saving" bulbs and not dimming them.

Reply to
Robert Green

I replaced the fixture this weekend. I did not replace the X10 3-way switches. I'm willing to take a chance mainly because of what I saw when I opened the box. They changed the MS electronics in the fixture.

Since I really don't know what was killing the fixtures, the X10 circuitry or a poor quality MS, I'm going to lean towards the MS in the fixture being the actual problem. I have no way of knowing, but since "they" decided to change the electronics inside the fixture, I'm going to run with the new one and see what happens. If it dies in a year or so, I'll change the switches and give up the dimming feature.

Of course, the fixture decided to screw with me anyway.

I bench tested the new fixture in my (dark) shop and the MS and timer operated perfectly. Then I installed it on the wall, used the Test mode (during the day) and it worked fine. I then set it to Run mode and waited until dark. I discovered that it did not detect motion. I put a broom right up to the detector. Nothing. What? It worked when I bench tested it in my shop. Why won't it work on the wall?

It was the damn Christmas lights! The lights on that part of the house are about 6" closer to that fixture than the other one. That's just enough light to fool the fixture into thinking the sun is still up. I turned off the Christmas lights and the fixture worked fine.

I guess I'll have to wait until after the first of the year to take advantage of the new fixture.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

Typical motion detector works by detecting motion in a heat signature. Has a bunch of lenses that project the field of view onto the sensor at different angles. As the heat signature moves, it passes across the sensor causing a change in amplitude. If you have a hot spot in view that is currently impinging on the sensor the broom can block it, thus causing a change in the sensor output. It's best to move the heat source that's hotter than the background horizontally across the field of view. Try setting the broom on fire.

Reply to
mike

I was with you right up to using a broom to test it on the wall. These motion detectors are called PIR or Passive Infra-Red. In other words, they detect body heat. A broom that is the same temperature as the surrounding area won't trigger it. They can be fooled by wearing a heavy coat in the winter, too, if the outside of the coat is cold and the sensor doesn't see your face (or your face is a very small percentage of the sensor's visual area).

Pat

Reply to
Pat

Not arguing, just wondering...

As a reminder, here is the fixture in question. Note the location of the se nsor window.

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The one that has worked for years is mounted next to the front door. It is located near upper left corner of the storm door - the side that opens. To be exact, the sensor is

12" down from the top of the door and 10" away from the opening side.

As soon as the storm is opened 3? (from the inside, just to be clea r) the light comes on. What heat signature is the sensor sensing? Isn't the storm door the same te mperature as the sensor (currently a nice balmy 25F)?

As far as I recall, this happens winter, spring, summer and fall.

To see if the sensor was being triggered by a rush of hot air from the insi de, I left the storm door open, waited for the light to go out and then slowly opened the main d oor. The sensor did not trigger. If I try the same experiment but rapidly open the front do or, the sensor does trigger. I don't know how to tell if it's movement or heat that the sensor sensed.

Thoughts?

Reply to
DerbyDad03

Usually, motion sensors have a milky white window. In this case, it looks like it is dark to match the fixture. I'm not sure what that means. If it is like others I have seen, opening the screen door might partially block some sources of heat. For example, this time of year, your air temp might be 25, but I bet the ground temp is higher. Or, maybe there is some other source of heat like a street light that the door frame blocks. These, of course, are wild guesses on my part. Post back if you discover any new evidence. I am still quite sure your sensor is passive infrared. The only other possibilities I am aware of are ultrasonic which wouldn't have a window like that and video camera/software based (like the newer traffic light controllers) which would be too expensive for a simple light fixture.

Reply to
Pat

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