Contractor question - workman's compensation

[Dan_Musicant]

: : :On Jan 3, 3:35 pm, Dan_Musicant wrote: :> I've made arrangements to have my water main replaced by a licensed :> plumbing contractor in CA. I just met him last night and the work isn't :> going to start for a week, so I can back out of this if I call him today :> or tomorrow easily enough. I have another decent bid and I could go with :> them (a pretty large company). :>

:> I just looked up his license and he's a sole owner and it says "This :> license is exempt from having workers compensation insurance; they :> certified that they have no employees at this time." :>

:> He said he'd try to hire a tough competent guy to help with the :> trenching. What happens if that guy is hurt on the job? Am I going to be :> liable? : :You would be, yes. : :Have the plumber hire a sub and provide the necessary proofs of :insurance. Or, hire a general laborer from a temp employment agency :(some of them specialize in construction help). Then the temp agency :has the necessary workmen's comp covered. Still get proof. : :R

I just talked to the plumber and he said he would do just that. Problem is he didn't answer my call for almost 24 hours, so I'd called the other bidder and made arrangements with him instead. It's $100 more, but I know he's properly insured and he will also start the work tomorrow instead of in 6 days. Either one would do the same job using the same materials, as I make out from conversations with them.

Dan

[Norminn]

clipped

No written bid? You saw his proof of insurance?

[RicodJour]

[RicodJour]

Three things, Dan.

- The difference between $2200 and $2399 is two hundred bucks, not one hundred bucks.

- Contracting businesses may pay their employees, if any, by the hour, but the business itself is run by the day. The return phone call did not come 24 hours later, it came the next day. Unless there is an emergency a next day call is perfectly acceptable in just about everybody's book. The guy is also a sole proprietor which may increase or decrease his response time depending on how busy he is and what juggling he has to do that day.

- You've probably burnt a bridge with that sole proprietor. Giving the job to another guy because the first guy returned your call the next day would be considered capricious by many, and he might not appreciate what he considers to be your wasting his time.

R

[Jeff Wisnia]

It used to be that way here in Massachusetts, but unless I'm remembering wrongly a few years ago they started letting unincorporated sole proprietors buy it on themselves.

And about the same time they let majority owners/officers of businesses opt-out of having to carry it on themselves here.

I bet they would issue worker's comp insurance in Georgia if the sole proprietor forms an S-corporation with him/herself as the only employee.

That's the way sole proprietors who needed it for customers who required it in order to do business with them used to do it here.

Jeff

[Tom The Great]

imho:

Just thought of something, it is possible that your plumber will 'get' a person from a temp service. I belived they come with their own workman's comp, since the temp help isn't hired, but leased. Kindof. Like I said, get all the paperwork ahead of time, and verify it. ;)

tom

[Dan_Musicant]

:clipped :> :> I just talked to the plumber and he said he would do just that. Problem :> is he didn't answer my call for almost 24 hours, so I'd called the other :> bidder and made arrangements with him instead. It's $100 more, but I :> know he's properly insured and he will also start the work tomorrow :> instead of in 6 days. Either one would do the same job using the same :> materials, as I make out from conversations with them. :> :> Dan :> : :No written bid? You saw his proof of insurance? I got no written bid from the sole proprietor who I cancelled. I did get a written bid from the other company, however I cancelled it about a week ago. Now, I have told them to go ahead with the work, but I asked for a couple of changes in minor details (an extra hose bibb, 3/4" L copper under the house, and an assurance that they will install a bonding jumper at the meter). When I see the guy I talked to I guess I should have him make some notes on my signed bid. They are the same folks who are doing the trenchless sewer lateral replacement for me. I know they're insured. There guys have been around for around 50 years and are a good sized company. The CSLB website says their insurance and bonding is in good standing. Maybe I should ask them for proof of insurance. Is that standard practice when hiring a contractor? Then you call the insurance company and have a conversation?

[Dan_Musicant]

:On Jan 4, 7:35 pm, Dan_Musicant wrote: :> On 4 Jan 2007 14:35:14 -0800, "RicodJour" :> wrote: :> : :> :On Jan 3, 3:35 pm, Dan_Musicant wrote: :> :> I've made arrangements to have my water main replaced by a licensed :> :> plumbing contractor in CA. I just met him last night and the work isn't :> :> going to start for a week, so I can back out of this if I call him today :> :> or tomorrow easily enough. I have another decent bid and I could go with :> :> them (a pretty large company). :> :>

:> :> I just looked up his license and he's a sole owner and it says "This :> :> license is exempt from having workers compensation insurance; they :> :> certified that they have no employees at this time." :> :>

:> :> He said he'd try to hire a tough competent guy to help with the :> :> trenching. What happens if that guy is hurt on the job? Am I going to be :> :> liable? :> : :> :You would be, yes. :> : :> :Have the plumber hire a sub and provide the necessary proofs of :> :insurance. Or, hire a general laborer from a temp employment agency :> :(some of them specialize in construction help). Then the temp agency :> :has the necessary workmen's comp covered. Still get proof. :> : :> :R :>

:> I just talked to the plumber and he said he would do just that. Problem :> is he didn't answer my call for almost 24 hours, so I'd called the other :> bidder and made arrangements with him instead. It's $100 more, but I :> know he's properly insured and he will also start the work tomorrow :> instead of in 6 days. Either one would do the same job using the same :> materials, as I make out from conversations with them. : :Three things, Dan. :- The difference between $2200 and $2399 is two hundred bucks, not one :hundred bucks.

Right, that was a typo and I didn't notice it until I'd already sent it. I thought it a bit silly to correct it with a followup, but I will here since you mention it, and it is a valid point. I meant to type $2300.

:- Contracting businesses may pay their employees, if any, by the hour, :but the business itself is run by the day. The return phone call did :not come 24 hours later, it came the next day. Unless there is an :emergency a next day call is perfectly acceptable in just about :everybody's book. The guy is also a sole proprietor which may increase :or decrease his response time depending on how busy he is and what :juggling he has to do that day. :- You've probably burnt a bridge with that sole proprietor. Giving the :job to another guy because the first guy returned your call the next :day would be considered capricious by many, and he might not appreciate :what he considers to be your wasting his time. : :R

You're right, of course. When I first called him he called me back within about 5 minutes. We had a verbal understanding that I might call him within a day to cancel the job. Thus when I called him 24 hours later and said I had something to ask him, I thought the fact that he didn't return my call for almost another full day somewhat strange. He knew I had another good bid. People in this thread said that with my lack of a basic homeowner's policy I should be "extremely cautious." Also, I feel that the plumbing company that I'm currently dealing with has treated me rather well. Free inspection with camera, considerably underbid the competitors and fixed a very problematical clogged drain for free. Their bid was only $100 more than the sole proprietor, who was evidently uninsured. I didn't feel good cancelling either, to be truthful. Sometimes you can't win. My water main is broken and I'm prevailing upon my neighbors and using their water. It's coming through a couple of hoses and I'm wondering about how safe it is to drink.

I tried to be politic with the sole proprietor, and not burn my bridges. Look, we never even signed a bid. It was so informal and the work was to begin more than a week later. The man's busy, and he wasn't put out beyond coming over and looking and talking to me at length about the proposed job. On top of that, he lives close by so his travel wasn't much. I don't think he will refuse to consider me for future work. He doesn't seem like that kind of guy. Still I realize that cancelling the job without having talked to him first doesn't leave me at the top of his list of favorite potential customers.

Dan

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Most insurance agents have a standard form they send out for proof of insurance. That is all you should need.

[Steve B]

Yes, no, maybe, and definitely.

When I was a steel erection contractor, the customer was sent a certificate of insurance DIRECTLY from the agency where I had my policy. It was unacceptable for the contractor to give the customer a "copy" of anything regarding their insurance. It had to come from directly from the agency, or it was not considered valid.

That being said, all jurisdictions are not the same. But, something directly from the company who wrote the policy is definitely better than a "copy" that a guy can make up on his home computer.

Steve

[Tom The Great]

imho:

That is all you need to 'start'. I've talked to agents that say they get calls from customers asking about their insured, but arent' valid. The work person pays the downpayment, and then never pays any following installments, but still show their summary page.

Call, find out.

tom @

[blueman3333]

I know that technically that is the right thing and I would do that for a big project. But do people really do that for every small job? Presumably the liability from a fall is the same whether fixing one shingle or redoing the whole roof? Just it seems to me that it is hard enough sometimes getting someone even without doing that...

What happens with so-called "handy men"? Even after spending mega bucks on big projects, my folks who are now getting on in age use a handy man for the small things. Presumably, the same liability would apply if he fell off a ladder or shocked himself, etc. Right?

Damn this litigous society. If someone you hired (who defacto is claiming expertise in such services hurts himself), he should be 100% responsible unless you were grossly negligent. Even then, as a professional I would expect him to recognize such dangers in advance and take precautions unless again you were grossly negligent and the dangers were completely hidden and undisclosed. If he chooses not to buy insurance that should be his fault.

[Dan_Musicant]

:Damn this litigous society. If someone you hired (who defacto is :claiming expertise in such services hurts himself), he should be 100% :responsible unless you were grossly negligent. Even then, as a :professional I would expect him to recognize such dangers in advance :and take precautions unless again you were grossly negligent and the :dangers were completely hidden and undisclosed. If he chooses not to :buy insurance that should be his fault.

This makes real sense to me. I eventually went with the fully insured party, a pretty big plumbing company. I could have had the job done for

30% less by uninsured people. I could have had the job done for 5% less by a competent plumber who would have hired an insured helper, if I'd been patient enough. However, I was using the neighbor's water and wanted to get on with the project.

I could have called I guy I met recently who would probably have done the work for less than 50% of what I'm paying and he probably isn't insured. However, I'm confident he's no cheat or crook. I'm not one to play it straight all the time but this time I did. People in this NG told me to, so I figured maybe I should.

After watching the guys do the work I realize I could have done it all myself. However, hindsight is 20-20, and I didn't know I was capable of the job until I WATCHED it being done from beginning to end, more or less. If I had to have the job done today, I'd do it myself and for around 20% the cost (i.e. materials). I watched them trenching and it looked totally easy. I have the shovels and could have borrowed any other tools needed, although I think I have all those too.

Dan