Changing out a fuse box

Do they make a circuit breaker panel that will mount in an old fuse box? I have a friend that wants to get an old house ready to rent. The house is small but it is really nice. Here are two pictures of the fuse box. It has a GE cover that is listed at 150A. The box measures 14.5 by 24 by 3.75. No markings on the service entrance cable that tells what size the wire is.

He wants to just remove the old guts and update it to circuit breakers. The bottom left fuse block is hot on both sides even with the fuses removed. In the extreme lower left there is a fuse block that is not being used.

Since he is an old friend, I offered to have a look at it for him, but I really don't know what to tell him short of tearing the house down and start from scratch. I know that is not what he wants to hear. The insulation on the wire looks so brittle I don't want to touch it. The house is in rural Georgia.

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-- O'Neil to General Hammond: For the record Sir, I wanted to blow it the hell up.

Reply to
Metspitzer
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Cuttler Hammer has some retrofit panelboards.

Reply to
gfretwell

** It's hard to tell, but those conductors look like #2 aluminum, which would only be good for 100 amp. I don't think you're going to find anything to retrofit breakers into that cabinet, but there aren't that many loads in the panel, so it wouldn't be too hard to replace it altogether. You will have to cut about 8" of wall out directly above the panel, to get the cables out and into the new box.
Reply to
RBM

Those big lines look like the old tinned copper conductors to me, not aluminum. I see it a lot on older copper wiring perhaps because a lot of common electrical practice in years past was to solder connections because there were probably only ceramic wire nuts available for small connections and solder lugs for larger connections. I've seen a lot of old house wiring that was soldered and insulated with friction tape.

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

Oops! On second thought, looking at the neutral, it could be aluminum. :-)

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

I am pretty sure the wire is aluminum. The insulation almost looks like cloth, but I can't be sure. I am sure it is old.

Thanks everyone

Reply to
Metspitzer

** I think it's a cloth wrapping over rubber
Reply to
RBM

I really hope there is rubber under, and I don't doubt you. I looks like if you just touch it, the insulation would fall off.

Thanks

Reply to
Metspitzer

There are plug-in fuse replacements that are circuit breakers. That would be a LOT CHEAPER than what you are proposing, and should work just about as well. It also saves you from having to get a permit and having to update all the wiring to the present NEC codes.

Reply to
hrhofmann

Do they fit GE boxes? I called two GE supply places in Atlanta and both people gave me a direct "no"

It seems unnecessary to remove a perfectly good box that was made for electrical connections and replace it with a box made for an electrical connections.

I don't expect the mounting holes to match, but the box could be tapped to hold a new set of guts.

Reply to
Metspitzer

Legally the only issue is if the box is big enough. A sanity check would be to see what box size C/H puts that panelboard in and see if yours has the same basic dimensions. The question is total cubic inches and wire bending space at the breakers (usually width) . If it was close I would think about going for it ...

BUT,

you might find a complete load center with a handful of breakers in a package deal is cheaper than the retro panelboard and you will still need breakers. The internet can be your friend on this. I found a deal on the net for a 150a Square D QO bundled with a bunch of breakers, shipped, cheaper than Home Depot could do for Homeline and no breakers.

If you don't have a business relationship with a supply house (AKA discount) they probably won't be close because they usually cite list price for strangers. YMMV Times are tough so call, but call knowing exactly what you want. Act like a pro they might treat you like one.

Reply to
gfretwell

**He would have to find the guts, and the cover, to fit the existing box. The box he has is huge, but I doubt you can find a retro fit for it. He also has to determine the size of the entrance cables. The current fuse box is a split buss, 150 amp, but those SE conductors don't look like 2/0 to me. He may wind up with a 20 circuit 100 amp panel, which will be considerably smaller than what he has
Reply to
RBM

I am afraid you are going to be right, but that is not what I wanted to hear.

I actually told that to the girl at the supply house. I told her that I had already talked to two people that said they didn't make them. I wanted to talk to someone else. We had a pretty good laugh.

Reply to
Metspitzer

Oh and the service entrance cable. I suggested that the owner of the house stop by the supply house and talk a guy into giving him a 6 inch piece of #2 aluminum and we could compare it to what he has.

He is a carpenter, but he works for Cleveland Electric here in Georgia. He should be able to get a small piece before we go any farther.

Reply to
Metspitzer

**I love that: I only want to talk to the guy that says what I want to hear... Don't we all **It's going to be hard to make a comparison unless he gets a piece of #2 from an SE cable. In a standard conductor, the individual strands are round. In an SE cable, they're actually flat on the outside circumference. If you look at it cross sectionally, it's like a solid round core of aluminum
Reply to
RBM

I don't know the answers to the electrical questions, but if your friend is planning on renting the property out, he may want to consider having a licensed electrician do a whole new service or at least do the changeover to circuit breakers.

One reason is that since it is an income property, the cost should be a deductible business expense for tax purposes. Another reason is that his insurance carrier may require that. And, a third reason has to do with liability issues in the event of a fire etc. in the future -- an insurance company may deny the claim if he (or an unlicensed person) did the electrical work; and he or any unlicensed person who did the electrical work could be personally liable for any damages or harm that results.

He may already know about these types of issues if he has other rental properties; but, if this is his first venture into the rental/landlord business, he may want to start learning as much as he can about that. Once way to get more information etc. would be to join a local real estate investor association or group. Here is a link to some that are in Georgia:

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. I think that usually the groups that have "REIA" (Real Estate Investor Association) in their name tend to have more useful information a resources for their members.

Reply to
RogerT

I dont know why you would want to do this. All you are doing is keeping a metal box. You still have to get the meter pulled to change the MAINS. And you still have to rewire every circuit to the house. About the only thing you would not have to do is remove the romex or BX clamps. So what's the point? If you have conduit going to the house, most of the time you may find it a little more difficult, but it's still not that big of a deal. Find a similar sized breaker box and just change the whole thing. The time you'll spend removing cable clamps would be spent trying to retrofit the breakers in the old box anyhow.

Another thing to think about is the entrance to the box. If you have an old 60A fuse box and upgrade to a mimimum 100A breaker box (or larger), you'll need to replace the cable from the entrance head to the meter and to the breaker box. Often this means replaceing the pipe on the side of the house because it's too thin for the larger cable. In order to pass code, you'll most likely have to replace everything from the entrance head to the breaker box anyhow. The house wiring can be reused in most cases.

Reply to
jw

How about a new GE panel? The holes might even line up :-)

There's nothing wrong with fuses as long as they have the right sizes installed; I wouldn't touch it if you have enough capacity. What are the main fuses in that top pullout, 125A?

When I replaced my old 60A fuse panel, I gutted it and used the old box as a junction box. Mounted the new 150A breaker box right next to it and connected them with a short 1 1/4" rigid conduit. But I ran new service entrance conductors... You don't want to do that if the existing ones are big enough.

-Bob

Reply to
zxcvbob

Thanks for the suggestion.

Unless things have changed, the home owner is allowed to work on his own house. I worked as a commercial electrician for 20 years until

2000, but I am disabled. He knows I won't be much help, but I am willing to share all I know with him.

I will be emailing him the Google link to this thread, and he may even want to join in.

My advice will be to change everything, but it is going to be his call. My residential experience is one house (my sisters)

Reply to
Metspitzer

OK, I decided to see what an actual 2/0 aluminum SE conductor looks like. Your photo looks like #2 to me, so I cut a piece from some cable and I have to admit, even holding it in my hand, it looks like #2 to me. This stuff is so tight, it really is considerably smaller than standard wire. Unfortunately I don't have standard 2/0 aluminum wire, to show the comparison. Here are some pics of the SE conductor:

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Reply to
RBM

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