So, if water boils at 212 degrees (what I learned in elementary school and relatively speaking), what temp is the steam that is produced? 211? 213? .....LOL
Hank
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212, you got it first time. And water will boil at OR BELOW 212 depending on atmospheric pressure. Of course that is in an open container.
Harry K
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harry k wrote:

If steam is water vapor, it is produced whenever water is at a temperature where its partial pressure is higher than the partial pressure of the water in the air. That's when wet items become drier.
If steam is fog, it is produced when the temperature of water is above the dew point of the air. Steam can rise from an icy road as visibly as from boiling water.
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All true but his question is 'what temp is the steam from 'boiling water?'
I suspect he thinks water boils at 212 at any altitude.
Harry K
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Still puzzled by the "Boil your dishes at 212deg F for 20 minutes in order to sanitize them"! I'm heading towards 76 (at the moment) and the other night as we washed the after supper dishes with my friends, medical couple; who are respectively a) A medical doctor b) A registered nurse, we used 'hot' water, too hot to put hand under, for rinsing for some items and had other dishes running through the dishwasher. But the hand dish washing was certainly NOT at 212 deg or for 20 minutes.
Several days later now, I'm not sick nor have I ever been after dining with them! I'd not like to be that sensitive as to have to boil my dishes. But, based on the 21 for 20 mins; maybe it's wonder we are still all alive?
That requirement sounds more like 'sterilization' than practical domestic sanitation. The sort of standard that I hope a surgeon or proctologist will insist upon if he's going inside me!
But also when I go to the dentist, these days one does not see the tray of boiling dental tools/utensil that one once did!
Maybe it's all chemicals and UV lamps these days?????????
Hey maybe should install UV lamps (on timers) in our dish cupboards?
PS. Still not sick from our shower even though our boil water order still in effect. (Something about a broken connection at the chlorinator/pump house. I figured that for the first few days we were still using previously chlorinated water anyway; you know 'exposure times' etc.
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clipped

Probably autoclaves except for sharp instruments, which generally are disposable blades. Sharp edged surg. inst. are dulled by autoclaving. Autoclaving is necessary to kill spores, even though boiling alone might kill the living bacteria. There are viruses that survive even autoclaving, I believe, but they don't produce disease (or go where there are vulnerable subjects?)

"Boil water" orders are wise to follow, since the normal clorination and filtering aren't protecting the entire water supply. Most bodies of water nowadays have at least some e coli, and many have other bacteria and parasites. Of course, in the "good old days", we didn't have hundreds of thousands of people alive and quite well, in spite of having immune disorders that are part of a disease process or side effect of drug treatments. In the "good old days" they might have been dead or crippled from arthritis.
FWIW, bacteria grow very well on a bar of soap, which is why hospitals quit using bar soap decades ago (at least for multi-user sites).
And when you're 76 y/o, your immune system is a good deal weaker than it used to be :o) Being immune to a disease earlier in life does not mean you cannot get it again (chicken pox & shingles).
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wrote:

Still puzzled by the "Boil your dishes at 212deg F for 20 minutes in order to sanitize them"! I'm heading towards 76 (at the moment) and the other night as we washed the after supper dishes with my friends, medical couple; who are respectively a) A medical doctor b) A registered nurse, we used 'hot' water, too hot to put hand under, for rinsing for some items and had other dishes running through the dishwasher. But the hand dish washing was certainly NOT at 212 deg or for 20 minutes.
Several days later now, I'm not sick nor have I ever been after dining with them! I'd not like to be that sensitive as to have to boil my dishes. But, based on the 21 for 20 mins; maybe it's wonder we are still all alive?
That requirement sounds more like 'sterilization' than practical domestic sanitation. The sort of standard that I hope a surgeon or proctologist will insist upon if he's going inside me!
But also when I go to the dentist, these days one does not see the tray of boiling dental tools/utensil that one once did!
Maybe it's all chemicals and UV lamps these days?????????
Hey maybe should install UV lamps (on timers) in our dish cupboards?
PS. Still not sick from our shower even though our boil water order still in effect. (Something about a broken connection at the chlorinator/pump house. I figured that for the first few days we were still using previously chlorinated water anyway; you know 'exposure times' etc.
reply: Holy crapola! Mine are lucky if they get 100 degrees for twenty seconds. Food safety is more about leaving food at room temperature, and other things, than washing. Yes, it does take some "sanitizing" or "sterilizing" if your dinnerware gets infected with some botulism or salmonella or e coli or any of the good stuff. But, unless one is a total slob, normal food prep, watching highly dangerous foods (chicken, sushi, and others you can Google), and prompt cleaning do more than needed for the average germobliviousophobic person.
For all those others who need to do 212 for 20 minutes, I'm sure they're not telling quite all the story. I've eaten in some of the worst places in the world, eaten some stuff I wouldn't give my dog, and eaten some suspicious stuff out of my own fridge, and I can only think of one time I think, but do not know, I got food poisoning.
And if one does get a messed up stomach, the best cure I have found is bananas and yogurt, and then a CHEESEBURGER!
YMM(and probably does)V
Steve
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Try top of Everest. About 28,000 feet hence reduced pressure. And btw guess it's impossible to get a 'good cup of tea' at the ISS (International space station)! So water (pure water?) changes state (to steam/vapour) at certain temps. and pressures, which are related. Right?
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stan wrote:

149F, ouch! Before deciding whether to climb Everest, I'll experiment with 149F tea.

Water and ice change to vapor at all temperatures. In some circumstances, they don't change to vapor as fast as vapor changes to water or ice.
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Yep. Ice will go direct to vapor not passign through the 'water' stage. Been over 50 years since my last chemisstry/physics classes. 'sublimation' sounds like the right term.
Harry K
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harry k wrote:

Now you've got me going. In my case over 40 years so I should know better but I cannot recall. There was a standard demonstration of this in the chemistry class in senior school: ammonium something, I think.
Help!
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wrote:

Try top of Everest. About 28,000 feet hence reduced pressure. And btw guess it's impossible to get a 'good cup of tea' at the ISS (International space station)! So water (pure water?) changes state (to steam/vapour) at certain temps. and pressures, which are related. Right?
reply: PSSSSSSSSST! STAN! You are arguing with two of the most prolific trolls on Usenet, Harry K and saltydog, two denizens of my killfile. Go into your back yard and lecture a stump. You will get better results, and soon realize you are wasting your time.
HTH
Steve
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A troll? For pointing out known facts? Step on your toes did I?
Harry K
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On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:02:39 -0700 (PDT), "Hustlin' Hank"

At atmospheric pressure water boils at 212 F. Also, water freezes at 32. You can use these facts to check a thermometer for accuracy.
Check the phase diagram at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_transition
to see the various pressures in which water boils. There are exceptions though. For example, superheated water can exist at atmospheric pressure, well above 212 F. This can be a safety hazard, especially clean water heated in a clean vessel may suddenly bump. There is a lot to learn about water.
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wrote:

A more accurate water phase diagram is here: http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html
As a reference: 101.3 kpa = 760mm = 1atm at see level. 100 C = 212 F = 373 K
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On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 20:59:04 -0400, in alt.home.repair, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Using a pressure cooker for sterilization is beyond paranoid. Why not just get it right to begin with by buying an autoclave?
--
Due to Usenet spam, emailed replies must pass an intelligence test: if
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On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:04:15 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@asgard.slcc.edu wrote:

Oh, relax! I haven't even agreed that bacteria in a showerhead is a problem. Someone posted that they thought that the hot water in their dishwasher was sterilizing things, and I simply pointed out that anything less than 212 degrees for 20 minutes is not considered sterilizing. One person even went off the rails over my use of the word sanitize, versus sterilize.
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snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Now you've made me spill hot coffee on my lap! I hope I'm not sterilized! A sanitizer need only produce a 5 log reduction. That's not sterilizing. Anything less than 15 minutes at 250 F is not considered sterilizing.
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SA seems to be theliving example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
Harry K
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snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

And letting the wooden cutting board dry completely kills even more bacteria. It is proven that plastic cutting boards are more likely to hold living bacteria than wooden ones. One of the reasons is becasue both boards will get tiny slits cut into it. The wooden one will dry out and the bacteria will die. The plactic one can hold tiny amounts of water in those slits keeping bacteria alive for weeks or more.
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