Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

[Solar Flare]

[Solar Flare]

Exactly! My, and many other's, point! Well said.

It is still advisabe to use transfer switches for generators. Take all the safety precautions you can. The nightmares and the legal fees may not be worth what could happen to you or another human being. Despite the bullshit the Electrical Utilities dish out to the simpleton public.

[Toller]

Yes, but for the third time, it is 2kw. It tripped once when both the refrigerator and freezer came on at the same time. 10 houses? 2 houses would be extraordinary.

[Chris Lewis]

According to Pete C. :

You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your generator?

In emergencies people do wierd things.

Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews.

[Pop]

Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"

"Pete C." wrote in message news: [e-mail]... : George wrote: : >

: > Toller wrote: : > >

: > > Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my : > > generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My : > > 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so. : > >

: > >

: >

: > So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location : > of lineman? : >

: > But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary : > is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So : > you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in : > my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable. : >

: > And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and : > scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to. : : Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main : breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect. : : The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and : backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman : directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've : seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home : generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired : lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures. : : There are far more reports of utility linemen being killed or injured by : other careless actions than by improperly connected generators. One : report I read that springs to mind (the lineman survived this one) is : where a drunk driver had plowed a pad mount transformer off the pad and : tossed it a few hundred feet. The lineman arrived, walked over the the : pad and saw that the high voltage cables with the "elbow" connectors : looked to be in good shape so he picked one up, grabbed a rag from his : pocket and proceeded to wipe some dirt out of the connector. He hadn't : checked to see if things were still live and regained consciousness a : short while later with the cops paying more attention to him than the : drunk driver. : : Pete C.

[Pop]

: Yes, but for the third time, it is 2kw. It tripped once when both the : refrigerator and freezer came on at the same time. 10 houses?

2 houses : would be extraordinary. : : And less than one's enough to kill someone.

[Vaughn]

Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills.

Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.

Vaughn

[Waldo]

Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting their generators to their electrical systems. They talk about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw the breakers.

The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected with isolation switches seems to go right over their heads. They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you ask me.

Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code requires it for the safety of everyone involved!

[Pete C.]

There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the link bar.

A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel.

The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved equivalents for permanent generator installations. A temporary hookup of a portable generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of the NEC. Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not applicable.

It is asinine to claim that you should always install a transfer switch in order to connect a generator, transfer switches only make sense in permanent installations.

Pete C.

[Pete C.]

If they could steal a 3,000# skid mounted diesel generator blocked in by several cars and not wake me up in the process I'd be very very surprised.

Pete C.

[Antipodean Bucket Farmer]

Always beware of the, "If I can't have it, then neither can you," type of morons. They may simply try to destroy your resources, in order to even out the "unfair" discrepancy.

[marika]

that may be true, I couldn't say

but I am really bothered by the very racist hurricane thing they are doing now, what with naming them after GREEK LETTERS.

What do the Greeks have to do with US hurricanes anyway.

It's not like they even start in the Aegean or anything

mk5000

"i'm very curious about different systems, and time you plunge into an early-adopter situation, there re unknown risks. But I felt that we could navigate it. It tourned out to be true"--Walter Murch

[Solar Flare]

They ran out of American names

Billy Bob Billy Rae Billy Sue Billy Jean Billy Joe Billy Graham

[gfretwell]

The difference is whether you can have an open coffin, closed casket or instant cremation.

[JoeSixPack]

But at least once, it was energized sufficiently to kill a lineman. That justifies this discussion

It's not megawatts, or watts that kill you, it's current. Even milliamps can kill when penetrating the skin. Those milliamps can enter the body quite easily at higher voltages. Backfeeding through a transformer can produce voltages quite sufficient to conduct those milliamps through a human body.

[JoeSixPack]

Incredibly stupid discussion. A service transformer steps voltage down from say, 7,200 volts to 240/120 volts. Backfeed 240 volts through the transformer, and 7,200 volts goes back out through the line. Anyone toucing the line can be killed at those voltages with very little current (milliamps in fact). It can and does happen, so stop using your limited knowledge to reach dangerous conclusions.

[gfretwell]

The lineman issue is potentially a problem but the real thing that keeps you from backfeeding the grid is the grid itself. When your tiny little generator hits your neighbor's A/C units and whatever else they still have on, your generator's breaker will trip. On my street there are about a dozen houses fed from a common secondary set and 4 transformers, all in parallel. It would take a very big genset to even bump that line. Unless the primary is broken on your dead end street, very close to your house, you will also be trying to feed all the other streets.

[JoeSixPack]

Stop spreading dangerous misinformation. Backfeeding generators can and do kill linemen.

A few of the many, many links that warn of this hazard.

You are a hazard.

[JoeSixPack]

Do you know what a step-down transformer does? It converts 7200 volts to

240 & 120 volts. Do you know what happens when you backfeed 240 volts through it? It puts 7200 volts back into the line. Do you know how little current it takes to kill you at such a voltage? Very little. Your limited knowledge and limited reasoning power are forming dangerous conclusions. Stop doing that. Someone may get killed because of what you are saying.

[JOHN D]

I'm not an electrician but here's my 2 cents. You can't ever let your generator feed back down the power lines. The main breaker must be off and must stay off. It doesn't matter if your generator can't possibly power the whole neighborhood or the whole grid..If people hook up generators to their house wireing, even for a few seconds, without isolating the house from the line,.sooner or later, somewhere, the right set of conditions will exist to electrocute a lineman. You can't take that chance. The main breaker must be off. There must be no chance that anyone will turn the main breaker back on before the generator connection is removed. I can see a lot of ways for this to go wrong.

I don't see where there's risk of back feeding through the neutral line any more than there would be if you have a proper generator transfer switch. Does a transfer switch isolate the neutral?