Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

[Spud]

What about the downed power line your neighbors, and you.

the aftermath of a disaster there are circumstances that circumvent conventional safety procedures. The utility companies rely heavily on independent construction firms to quickly restore utility lines. Private contractor employees are sometimes less familiars with the territory and the established utility company procedures. On top of everything else there is the stress caused by working long hours in inclement conditions and the pressure to restore power to thousands of customers some of whom are in dire need.

A line crew was dispatched at night to restore power to a small restaurant in a mountainous area. The restaurant was served by a 3-phase, 12.47-kV, tapline, three spans in length. "The crew found that tree limbs had fallen into a corner pole (one span from the restaurant) short-circuiting the line and blowing the fuses back at the tap pole. They also discovered that the restaurant was using a generator to maintain service."

The foreman confirmed that the main breaker at the restaurant was open, isolating the utility service. The crew tested and grounded the line a the tap pole and began repairs. When one lineman climbed the corner pole to remove limbs, he discovered that the jumpers and connectors were damaged and decided to replace them. "When he removed the jumpers, he was positioned in such a way that he was in contact with the under grounded portion of the line," continues Drew. For some reason, the restaurant owner was checking the generator and inadvertently closed the main breaker, backing power through the transformer bank and energizing the line up to the open jumpers. The lineman received a severe shock and died.

8/29/2005 As the number of personal electric generators grows, so does the threat of injury to utility workers and generator operators.

If you connect a generator to your electrical panel without isolating it, it ?s simply a disaster waiting to happen. A generator that?s connected to the power system can result in power lines being energized to line voltage of

7,200 volts or higher, whether they?re on the ground or still in the air. If your generator is not isolated from the Cullman EC distribution system, the transformer at your location acts in reverse and can actually step-up the normal household voltage of your generator to our system voltage. If your generator has energized power lines that are on the ground, the energized lines could prove to be a safety hazard to you, your family, and especially the linemen working to restore power.

As a matter of fact, a utility worker who was repairing damage from Hurricane Dennis was killed this past July in south Alabama because of an improperly installed generator. It is up to you to ensure the safety

Alabama, July 14, 2005 - Sumter Electric Cooperative (SECO) officials report that a South Carolina lineman helping to restore power in Alabama after the damage caused by Hurricane Dennis was killed late Tuesday, reportedly by an improperly installed customer generator.Alabama authorities are looking for the person responsible and indicate that charges are pending

all electric connections must comply with the National Electrical Code. You may be liable for damage to property or injury to people that may result from an improperly installed or operation of an emergency generator.

[Richard J Kinch]

All I can say is that here in SE Florida since Hurricane Wilma this week, with 6 million people out of power, with my neighborhood as a sample, there must be about 1 million backfed generators hooked up and running. It is not just commonplace; it is the norm.

One neighbor had a (gypsy) electrician install a 4-wire twist-lock socket in his garage specifically for backfeeding through a suicide cord.

Just stand in the electrical aisle of Home Depot for 5 minutes. You will see a steady stream of people buying wire and plugs and asking how to make a backfeed connection.

The same thing happened on a slightly smaller but still massive scale last year after Hurricanes Jeanne and Frances. I don't recall any reports of utility workers or users being harmed by the practice. There were certainly more people poisoned by carbon monoxide from generators than hurt or killed by electrocution from backfeeding or other misuse.

[Arnold walker]

Reminds me of a accident we had while I was in the navy. Old Gearing class destroyer with manual transfer to shorepower. Someone forgot the other breaker and the shipboard distribution transformer exploded. When it recieved BOTH ship generator and shorepower.The hot oil from the transformer took out half the electrical gang in the engineering compartment.A 1/2 hour "all hands" firefight ensued after towards. Had to rebuild all the shipboard generators a short time later.

[Solar Flare]

Never! In Ontario.

Contractors are not called for emergencies in our area and if they are ever caught working to less than Ontario regulations they are "kicked off" the job and may have charges laid on them. 10K - $100K are common if there is an injury involved. People are tired of paying for accidents and the Legislators are trying to stop it from happenning at any cost.

You do **NOT*** have rights as in a court. There is no 5th amendment. If they find you wrong. You're f**cked You are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

[Solar Flare]

We don't use potential or current indicator and our "ground straps" are not straps at all but rather 2/0 or larger copper, tested for impedance, less than

0.02 (forget value) resistance.

The phases are connected to the ground and/or neutral conductor and then with equipotential grounding techniques our feet are connected to that potential also in one or maore of many ways. Now we are standing in a certified, insulated to

1KV per inch tested every 6 months, boom mounted bucket doing overhead work. For U/G work we have 10Kv insulated boots on (law), 20kV insulated class 2 rubber gloves or whatever class necesasry for system voltage, flash glasses and an insulated hardhat.

Nothing is ever considered dead unless grounded. Nothing is ever ground without testing first. Nothing is ever tested without a legally registered process and documented procedure, checked by at least two other certified people to switch the piece of line or equipment out. This involves tagged locks and so on and so on.

People caught violating any process can and will be fired upon multiple or careless usage at any part.

In short, I do not agree with backfeeding carelessness but the excuse is mostly crap but they have to tell you something to stop it.

[Don Young]

[Toller]

Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?

[Chris Lewis]

According to Don Young :

It's worth remembering that in the case of most major events such as our ice storm, or the hurricanes of this season, it's not just one line break, it's _thousands_. The segment a generator might _try_ to energize could be just your lines lying on the ground, just your neighbors on the same pole pig, or larger. Certainly, if it's anything much more than that, your generator will stall (and/or smoke) out. But if it ain't, you may have created a booby trap between you and the pole awaiting anybody who walks too near, or your neighbor's house, or up on a pole. Possibly considerably higher than 120V. Ie: if we backfed the feed with a generator with a break between the last two poles coming to our house, there's a live

4KV line on the ground waiting to bite _anyone_ walking along our driveway.

[Chris Lewis]

According to Toller :

Who said anything about 80 square miles?

If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever.

Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried.

In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away, the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses' feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment.

[HorneTD]

Here are two Fatality Assessment and Control Evaluation (FACE) reports on the deaths of outside wiremen do to generator back feeds.

[George]

So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location of lineman?

But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable.

And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to.

[daestrom]

Last outage we had here, we lost a 13.8kv fuse on the main highway. My house and 10 others in the development. Happened during the day, with not many folks home. I'm pretty sure a 5kw generator would have energized the line for more than just a few seconds.

Folks have to remember that the load on the grid segment is highly variable. During the day, a house might only have a hundred watts or so unless the fridge kicks on. Add a thermostat for the furnace and you might have 300 watts (furnace blowers don't connect across the line until you energize the line). So a 5kw generator could conceivably *energize* 10 or more houses. And that would have made 13.8kV on the downstream side of that fuse out by the main highway (some 300 yards away from my neighbor's generator).

Do you *really* want to rely on how many lights the neighbor has switched on? Sure if there is a lot of loads turned on at the moment, your generator would stall out/smoke very quickly. But if all the lights are off (and the TV/computer shut off when the power goes off, so they won't come back on), then a house isn't always the same load and the generator may survive a bit longer.

I remember hurricane Frederick, back in '79. Power was out for weeks to some areas. But when the utility started powering up sub-stations, they would overheat because the long outage had effectively synchronized everyones load demand. Equipment is normally sized based on a certain amount of diversity factor between you and your neighbor's A/C, 'fridge, etc... Leave the power off long enough and when it comes back they *all* want to start at once. Ka-BOOM!!! goes the sub-station.

Predicting the amount of load drawn by a small group of houses can be a bit tricky.

daestrom

>

[Toller]

I did; up a few posts. The three time I have used my generator, there hasn't been a lineman within 10 miles of my house; hence 80 square miles.

Yeh, and then what?

Ah, but that hasn't happed to me.

That's true in your case, but not in mine. Besides, how long would my 2kw have lasted trying to energize two houses? I don't bother to bring out the genny unless it is clear that the outage will last more than a few hours; so what are the odds that there is a lineman on my feed when I turn it on?

And if there was, would there have been enough amperage to do anything? The two house, and whatever I have on, is a rather better ground than the lineman. I doubt he would have gotten measurable amperage despite the voltage.

Still, I have transfer switch now.

[nicksanspam]

No, you thoughtfully throw the main breaker.

Nick

[Solar Flare]

A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now want you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from freezing.

The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you have no other excuse not to. Your gas Your solar Your expenses Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs) Your expertise Your hard work. Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball?

"I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done"

[Pete C.]

That's a simple matter of explaining insurance policies, "You see I bought this insurance policy called a generator and you didn't". Perhaps they'll think about investing in an insurance policy for the next outage themselves.

As for "brick dodgeball", I have a video camera and a gun so any attack will be documented and the guilty party held for the police.

Pete C.

[Solar Flare]

All that backup power and you can't sleep for fear of the ninja neighbours?

LOL

[Steve Spence]

Apparently, thinking is not a highly held attribute among many posters to this newsgroup.

Here's a simple solution:

Here is another:

[Pete C.]

Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect.

The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures.

There are far more reports of utility linemen being killed or injured by other careless actions than by improperly connected generators. One report I read that springs to mind (the lineman survived this one) is where a drunk driver had plowed a pad mount transformer off the pad and tossed it a few hundred feet. The lineman arrived, walked over the the pad and saw that the high voltage cables with the "elbow" connectors looked to be in good shape so he picked one up, grabbed a rag from his pocket and proceeded to wipe some dirt out of the connector. He hadn't checked to see if things were still live and regained consciousness a short while later with the cops paying more attention to him than the drunk driver.

Pete C.

[Pete C.]

Uh huh.

Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes.

Pete C.