No; we have had to too many times before.
The world is not a perfectly safe place and far more people use far more common ways to kill themselves and others with gennys.
Vaughn (a guy with a transfer panel)
Um, it only take milliamps to kill you at 120/240 volts as well. The only difference between 120/240 and 7,200 is amount of insulation required to protect you.
Pete C.
There is absolutely no misinformation in what I posted. The links you list border on misinformation in their omissions.
I indicated that if you screw up and back feed the mains you will provide an opportunity for a careless lineman to kill themselves, not kill them directly. This is a *fact*. A lineman following established procedures will *not* be killed by a back feeding generator.
As I've noted, every case I've seen where a lineman was "killed by an improperly connected generator" has clearly shown that the lineman in question did not follow proper procedures. If you have references to a case where a lineman followed procedures and was killed by an "improperly connected generator" I'd like to see it.
I bet you also believe you can't put metal in a microwave oven...
Pete C.
Exactly right. It only takes milliamps to kill you, but the greater the voltage, the more milliamps are driven through your skin and into your body.
Many areas operate with primary voltages higher than 7200 volts.
It's the same current that it takes to kill you at 120/240 volts. The difference in not in the current requirement, it is in the amount of insulation required to protect you.
Your limited knowledge is forming incorrect assertions.
The amount of current flowing across the heart required to kill you is small and a constant. The voltage necessary to achieve this current varies depending on the contact conditions. Once you exceed the voltage necessary to produce that current across the resistance of the human body over the distance between the contact points, you're toast.
Pete C.
I've not seen any transfer switches that switch or isolate the neutral and I've seen many transfer switches.
Pete C.
What color is the sun in your little world there?
Do you not know that when you put 240V back through the transformer, it energizes the lines to 7200 Volts? Do you know how little current it takes to kill someone at such a voltage? Your comments are stupid and irresponsible. You just have to admit you're wrong sometimes, and there's no amount of explaining that can save you.
According to Pete C. :
I'm sure that a linesman whose been putting in 16 hour days for a week reconnecting lines after a hurricane will appreciate the attitude about booby traps.
Secondly, who said it's only linesmen? Last I heard, homeowners don't have such training, and a 4KV+ line lying in the ground isn't biased as to who it bites. Including unwary homeowners.
Wow, there's so much bull here it's almost amazing.
Throwing the main breaker" is exactly : what some approved transfer switches do, ===> No, it is not. They connect to or disconnect power from/to a predetermined path. The main breaker is not "thrown" by the transfer switch.
they have two very ordinary : circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the : handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off : the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the : link bar. ===> Guess you're making apoint here, but not sure what it is.
: : A competent person ===> Meaningless term again. Vague, not useful or meaningful. You mean a licensed electrician or more from the sound of it.
switches off and tags the main breaker before they : even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off : the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the : generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before : turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel. ===> Oh, but they don't notify/chase out the neighborhood kids, pets and others? : : >
: > The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected : > with isolation switches seems to go right over their heads. ===> No, I haven't seen much evidence of that. Pooly stated comment and not what I think you meant to say.
: > They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code : > requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and ===> But, if they "know what they're doing", wouldn't that make them a "competent person"?
: > neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator : > will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you : > ask me. ===> Yabut, it sounds just like your attitude earlier in this post. : : The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved equivalents : for permanent generator installations.
A temporary hookup of a portable : generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of the NEC. : Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not applicable. ===> True, but ... there are a couple sections of the NEC you're apparently not familiar with, plus you totally ignore any local codes in that statement. : : >
: > Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize : > your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code : > requires it for the safety of everyone involved! ===> No, use a Transfer Switch. An "isolation" switch in this context is meaningless. : : It is asinine to claim that you should always install a transfer switch : in order to connect a generator, ===> No, it is assinine to make the ego-centric statements you've made, though. Something tells me you only -think- you are a "competent person". Else you wouldn't try to make most of these statements.
transfer switches only make sense in : permanent installations. ===> No, they make a tremendous amount of sense. They make it easy, quick to do, and about as close to foolproof as you can make the situation. If Mom's the only one home and the pipes are freezing, all she has to do is start the generator by pusing the button, then turn on the power with the transfer switch. We'd be up and running before your "competent" guy even found his cordsets. Our situation isn't quite as neat: Here, you first have to roll the generator out of the garage and over to the porch, about
5 feet from the garage door, and plug it into the house first. Quite a hardship, but ... it's reliable and works.Ice Storm Survivor Pop
: : Pete C.
When some minds are made up, no amount of evidence or reasoning can convince them their arguments are faulty. I doubt if they will even respond to your excellent post.
More milliamps does not equal more dead. Dead is dead and once you're past the threshold the voltage is irrelevant.
Pete C.
The first story in his "excellent" post once again shows that the ultimate cause of the lineman's death was his own carelessness in not following proper procedures, not the generator. He was clearly not wearing his HV gloves or other protective gear.
The second story contains no details so a determination of the ultimate cause can't be made. I searched around and was unable to find a detailed report on this incident. It is quite likely that the ultimate cause of the death will be the lineman's own carelessness.
The established procedures for line work, if followed will keep the lineman safe regardless of the electrical state of the lines. I'd be quite interested if you have a detailed report of a fatality where all procedures were followed.
Pete C.
You know nothing of who I am, and are quite mistaken.
The only bull here is yours in trying to hack things out of context. Try again and this time leave everything in place and in context.
Pete C.
I'm well aware of how a transformer works, in fact I was the only one to pass my power distribution course with a perfect score (all weekly tests, mid term and final 100% correct).
My comments are 100% factually accurate. Please provide specific examples with references to what you think I am incorrect on.
The bottom line is that you can not kill a lineman by inadvertently back feeding the mains. In order for the lineman to be killed he must also not follow established procedures for his work.
Pete C.
Not a booby trap, a normal job hazard and one that the standard procedures for the job address.
Indeed, a live downed line can fry anyone that comes in contact with it, regardless of the source it is energized from. "Always assume any downed power line is live".
Pete C.
Indeed, but dead is still dead.
Pete C.
Not quite. A transfer switch prevents the possibility of having both sides connected at the same time.
Depends upon your definition of a competent person. Joe-blow may certainly think he's competent because he knows how to do it as you described above. I think I'm competent and that's why my generator hookup is to code requirements - via a transfer switch and proper sized cable and connectors.
My bad, should have read 'transfer switches' seems to go right over their heads.
Agreed, but depends upon your definition of an emergency situation. If someone is on a heart-lung machine, or something of that nature, and a back-up power source is not available and a generator must be brought in to provide power then I would consider that to be an emergency requirement. But a power outage for a few hours is not a real emergency for most homes, an inconvenience perhaps, but not an emergency.
And how do you define a permanent installation? I have a portable generator that gets connected through a transfer switch to the house during extended power outages. When line power comes back on the generator gets disconnected and rolled back into the shop. This is not a permanent installation, but code still requires it be connected via a transfer switch.
If a person has a generator on hand and intends to use it during power outages then that person should have the means to connect it properly and safely..
Waldo
I'm lucky in that I share a 50KVA transformer with one neighbor.
The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling factor.
Pete C.
You are also failing to follow the long standard engineering practice of having a system setup such that it requires a minimum of two failures for a life threatening fault. You are advocating that homeowners with generators intentionally provide the first failure. So now that lineman is only one ripped glove away from being electrocuted. You may be book smart, but you sure are stupid.
--Dale
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.