Are my business assumptions correct?

[micky]

Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works, I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being honest?

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the profit they would have made on the parts?

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Depends on the shop. Is it one you've used before and know the owner? If so, good chance you can just tell him you wanted to put them in yourself and could not and need his help. An honest shop will charge you a fair rate for labor.

[Scott Dorsey]

What makes you think the oxygen sensors have anything to do with your problem? If you're getting errors saying that sensors are out of range, it might well be because they are accurately measuring an exhaust that is out of range. Especially if you're seeing more than one.

If you take O2 sensors to a shop and tell them to replace them, they will replace them. Depending on how they are feeling that day and if they like you, you may get a PIA charge for bringing in your own parts and being a pain in the ass.

This means that if your problem is not bad sensors that you have just wasted a lot of money, both in the parts you bought unnecessarily and in the labour you paid them to do unnecessary work.

Replacing the sensors could be trivial or it could be a major pain in the neck depending on how rusty things are and how well-kept things are. If the last person that changed the sensors used anti-seize, it will greatly reduce the work needed.

But before I'd go swapping parts at random, I'd make sure that I knew what was actually wrong. A shop that is truly honest is likely to tell you they won't do any work without spending time on a proper diagnosis first.

--scott

[Clare Snyder]

Many shops have a "no outside parts" policy because if the parts get damaged they are responsible and if they are no good they can't proove they didn't damage them and can't warranty them. Other shops will install customer supplied parts,but absolutely no warranty. A very few shops actually prefer you supply the parts because then they have no responsibility and don't need to spend time chasing parts

- but if your parts are wrong or defective or you midded a required part like a bolt or gasket you pay shop time while waiting for the part. WhenI was in the business my policy was officially "no outside parts" but exceptions were made for oddball stuff. We also charged extra on every job where we were "finishing up" a DIY job that went bad - and it was STRAIGHT TIME. No flat rate. If you twisted off a bolt or rounded off a nut and it took 2 hours toget it out, you paid the full 2 hours. If my mechanic rounded it off or broke it off due to not taking proper precautions sometimes we were able to adjust the price. If it broke off because it was all rusted to heck and there was NO CHANCE of getting it off without breaking, you paid full price.

The sigh above the service desk said something like:

Regular labour: $40.00 per hour Labour if you watch: $50.00 per hour Labour if you broke it trying to fix it yourself: $60.00 an hour Labour if itcomes in in a box:$100.00 an hour

And no, we really were NOT joking!!!!

In the one garage I worked at for a while we wasted more time on jobs where the customer supplied parts - either used, discount, or whatever, that were either no good, didn't fit properly, or the wrong parts, than we could ever recoup on the customer charge. Just not worth the aggravation, generally speaking.

If you have a 1949 Hispano Suiso or a 1957 studebaker or a 1967 Isetta and you need work done and have a sourse for the parts that is a different story completely - and you pay the labour accordingly. (Just jiking about the Hispano - but I do stilloccaisionally work on MG TDs and Isettas and old Fiats - and Honda Mini Trails and other assorted offities where I'm just too happy tohave the owner supply the parts - even if I occaisionally have to spend time helping them determine what parts to get and where)

I've been known to trade a couple weeks of "babysitting" a classic for a couple hours of repair work - taking the car to cruise nights and sunday afternoon drives for most of the summer while repairing various sundry electrical and mechanical issues.

As for the O2 sensors - make sure they are the ACTUAL problem and don't go bitching to the mechanic after he replaces them if the engine light still comes on - - -

[Tekkie©]

On Fri, 02 Apr 2021 14:25:42 -0400, micky posted for all of us to digest...

Depends on the shop. They make a small profit on parts. I am just giving the other side of the story... What happens if the parts you supply are incorrect, broken, poor quality, out of specs, what happens then? Are you sure the sensors are bad? Just asking. Maybe a bad cat or broken wires, misinterpretation of data. Use OEM or OEM supplier sensors or you may have another set of problems.

They can be in REAL inaccessible places and tough to remove. It depends.

Just like a lawyer would say: It depends. ;)

[Rod Speed]

micky [e-mail] wrote

Its very unlikely that more than one has failed.

[Scott Dorsey]

It's very unlikely any of them have failed. I cannot even count the number of times I have seen cars blowing black smoke out the tailpipe which have just got new oxygen sensors because the computer was throwing a code saying the sensor was out of range in the rich direction.

The morons don't bother to figure out why it threw the code, they just swap out parts at random. They love swapping parts out.

--scott

[Ken Olson]

The shop I use for stuff I don't do myself doesn't care. But then I buy my tires and have other work done there.

[Steve W.]

Well you can piss money away by changing the sensors but it's not going to clear those codes. You have a different problem.

As to what the shop does, it depends on the shop. In mine if a customer brings their own parts, they are installed with no testing or warranty given because those are the parts YOU want installed. It is also noted on the paperwork that "Customer supplied parts installed per their direction" That way if the parts are wrong or don't fix the issue it's not my problem. No difference in the labor rate.

Now a good shop would bring in the car, do an actual diagnostic on it, then repair the real issue, which in this case could be nothing more than a broken vacuum fitting or bad intake boot that is letting excess air in past the MAF. Or a skewed MAF that is reading a low GPS number and the PCM thinks it's getting less air than it really is. Fuel trims and O2 live data would show that and changing the sensors will do nothing. Also you may wish to know that the only sensors involved with those codes are the two upstream sensors, the downstream units are for testing the cat efficiency and as back-ups to the upstreams if they fail.

[Steve W.]

Yep, I love the ones who bring in a vehicle and say "Here I want XX changed, I know they are the problem" Instead of actually doing a diag and finding the real issue. They always seem to complain though when it doesn't repair the problem...

[Xeno]

It always amazes me how people think that a *code reader* is the be all and end all of engine diagnostics. They seem to think an understanding of what's going on under the hood is no longer necessary. Unfortunately the diagnostician needs a very good understanding of system operation else they will be continually replacing bits which are showing

*symptoms* of the real fault. This current case is the perfect example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

[Scott Dorsey]

"But I saw on the Internet that replacing the front bumper will fix the rough idle problem!"

--scott

[Tekkie©]

On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:02:02 +1100, Xeno posted for all of us to digest...

Parts cannon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Tekkie©]

On 3 Apr 2021 14:49:40 -0000, Scott Dorsey posted for all of us to digest...

Really? I thought it was the rear bumper because that's where the exhaust comes out...

[micky]

I'll post a whole new thread about this later, where everyone will see it, but it turned out it was none of the 02 sensors. But I hadn't replaced any either. I fixed it myself but it took me 3.5 years!