Lesley, people can demand whatever the hell they want, but if the payment schedule is written into the contract, it doesn't mean jack shit.
Just because they ask for it doesn't mean you should pay it!
The better idea is to take his ass to small claims.
Yeah. That'll help defer some of the moving bills....
;-]
As a HVAC contractor in SC, I normally ask for 1/2 down on contract jobs, and get it. Huwever, I normally provide a 3 to 4 page WRITTEN proposal that we both sign and date. It spells out what I will do and what I will not do, the payment terms, my insurance, extra charges for changes and any discounts for options not taken.
Next time get it in writing and pay by check. Doesn't need to be typed, but should have his name and address & your name and address. Small operator like that probably can't handle credit cards.
He sounds like a real jerk. Still send him the letter, return receipt requested so you have proof of delivery. If he refuses it, you may get proof of that also. Then go to small claims or magistrate court. Filing fees are added to the award in many states. If you lose, it will only cost some time and the fees in most cases. (Check with the magistrate on that). Worth the try. He may be doing something ilegal if he has no license or tax certificate. Check your local government jurisdiction. Some areas allow work without license, some do not.
Good luck.
Stretch
I see this statement made pretty often, but I frankly don't understand it. I think it's kind of an urban myth that the customer "should" pay anything up front. I've been using all the usual subs for 30 years in doing full property rehabs and development and I've never had to pay anything up front. In cases of very high material cost, I have a few times paid for the material once on my property. In this area, contractors can cover their risk with property liens. In terms of reputable contractors, I have never even had one ask for upfront money.
bill
why so hostile?? getting a little claustraphobic in that trailer home?
bill
Oh, that's a great comeback.
FOAD, idiot. Don't bother replying.
I hope you got a written contract. Otherwise there is little you can do other than beat the crap out of the guy. DO NOT give him more money.
With that said, you really are posting to the wrong newsgroup. Take this to one of the newsgroups with the word "legal" in the name.
---------------
Never pay anyone up front if it's in any way possible. Most of these 'people' out there are untrustworthy morons. We had a guy in to lay laminate flooring a couple of weeks back. He ripped up the carpet, and started leveling the floor with cement. The last thing we heard of hime was when he said he'd be back at 9.00AM the next day to lay the floor. The good thing was, we hadn't paid him a cent - but we were left with a concrete floor for two weeks.
Actually, just as the 'man' said (the one who called me an ignorant bitch), I'm pretty much just venting here; wasn't looking for legal advice because I know there's no way to deal within the legal system with this kind of guy. I also wanted to hear what people had to say about paying up front. Some of you say I should expect to do it, some of you insist it shouldn't be necessary. The two contractors I've used successfully for a number of jobs only asked for anything up front when one of them had to buy a chain link gate and a storm door that I asked him to install. He asked me to pay for those up front, which I happily did. My other contractor wouldn't even take payment right after he finished the job--he insisted on sending me a bill and having me pay the bill! Still, I understand the concept of paying up front as a good faith gesture. It's just that I don't seem to be getting any such gestures back from these guys who insist on getting paid up front.
Probably for every good contractor out there who insists on money up front, there is one who doesn't. I just have to find those. I don't mind paying for jobs up front when specific materials are involved, but when it's just labor (or substantially labor), what about THEM trusting ME as a gesture of good faith for a change?!?
Best,
Lesley
Hey! Your Dad is the one with come on his back.....
"rider89" wrote
So you are saying I should get NO money up front, show up at someone's house with $3500 worth of equipment, install it, get it up and running and then I am supposed to sit back and wait for the customer to pay me when they feel like it? I know of VERY FEW companies that will do that.
We write up a proposal/contract (and, yes, with all of the fine print and legal mumbo-jumbo) that requires a signature and 1/3 down in order to even ORDER the equipment for the job. Then the balance is to be paid according to their credit history with us. They may get billed for the balance, they may have to pay it on the spot, or sometimes we spread the balance out over 12 months (with no interest. Call us crazy, but we do).
I understand what you are saying. There are plenty of unscrupulous contractors out there that will either take your money and run OR do a sub-par job and leave you with a mess. But how many deadbeat customers do you think are out there??!! I should just take money out of MY pocket, buy the equipment (and install it) and then HOPE that they will pay me back??? It DOES happen. And don't tell me "Well, companies can write that loss off." Yeah! I got the money and time to get a lawyer and take someone to court.
We are booked up until the 3rd week in January so we are not hurting for business. If you want a job done (right now), you'll have to wait AND you will have to pay me 1/3 up front or you can go somewhere else.
I understand your position, but all I'm telling you is what has been the case here. It may be a difference in community, in that the vendors and customers know about each other pretty well and in my case (and most other property guys I know), I have always paid 100% immediately at completion. I'm talking about projects that are wrapped up within a few days (roofing, flatwork, footings, siding, windows, hvac). If you can stay booked up with your conditions and only $3500 worth of equipment, more power to you.
bill
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:32:28 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab" scribbled this interesting note:
That's the way it works with us and our contractors, as well as for those we contract to do work for-with one exception: To be Paid Upon Completion. And there are no exceptions. Thus far, with more than several decades of experience hiring contractors and being a contractor, we've never not paid anyone, and we've never had any one not pay us.
It can and does work that way.
-- John Willis snipped-for-privacy@airmail.net (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)
I need some verification here.
Is this man a contractor or just a snow shoveler?
If this man is a contractor, the OP probably has recourse through agencies in their own state. My state considers it a felony to contract without a license, and they actively and vigorously pursue people who violate that law.
Or, was this person just some rummie who was hired to shovel snow? If that is the case, agreements are worth the paper they're written on. He said, she said. Small claims court? Well, did you get it in writing? Did you get a receipt/cancelled check? If you get a judgement, do you have a bank account number that they can get it from? You can win a case, but never get paid.
Sounds like a lesson learned about being stupid with money and hiring someone to do work.
Paying in advance before the work is done!
I only know one type of workman who charges like that on a regular basis.
Steve
You must understand that Dan C is just a boy who is left alone a lot by his strolling mommy ...
wasn't looking for legal
Legally, you are screwed. You can get a judgement in small claims, but it is only good for toilet paper and fire starter.
I also wanted to hear what people had to say
I am mixed up. Is this man a CONTRACTOR? If so, you should have recourse through your own state's agencies. What he is doing is illegal. In our state, this would be a felony.
Some of you say I should expect to do it, some
It's the deal YOU make. If some workman doesn't like your terms, find another.
The two contractors I've used
See. Every deal and workman is different.
He asked me to pay for those up front, which I happily
Now, that man is a real contractor. Invoicing you, having a check from you as proof of payment.
No, it's not good faith. It's some slimeball whispering in your ear, "Trust me."
It's just that I don't seem to be getting any such gestures
Ask the men for their licenses, and for their insurance company to mail you DIRECT a copy of their liability insurance and worker's comp. That will separate the real contractors from the slimeballs.
You still call these men contractors, and some of them are not. A real contractor has licenses. He has insurance. He is bonded to finish the job. A real contractor will whip these out or have their insurance companies mail you certificates. DO NOT accept any insurance certificate they provide, only those mailed DIRECTLY to you. Insurance certs are easily created or copied. All the others are slimeballs who are at the same time are whispering, "Trust me", and sliding their hand down your pants.
Steve, an ex steel erection contractor in the State of Nevada
I guess I'm a bit lost. He bid to clear your drive and walk for
250/300 for the entire snow season regardless of the number of storms? If it snowed 10 times, he made decent money assuming he can do it in less than an hour. At 20 times it doesn't sound good for him. I've seen pictures of some of your snow storms. I wouldn't want to try to shovel the snow high enough to get it off the drive, especially after last week's pile. I just don't understand anyone agreeing to an unlimited number of snow shovelings. A set fee per time makes more sense to me.How do kids make "coke money" now days? I don't happen to live where snow is an issue anymore.
(top posted for your convenience) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Keep the whole world singing . . . . DanG (remove the sevens) snipped-for-privacy@7cox.net
Um, Lesley, that's because you are exercising poor judgement. On the snow thing, you are dealing with a bum, not with a contractor.
There is no reason to pay someone up front for shovelling your snow. We have people who shovel for our houses -- we settle up every couple of snowfalls.
There are some areas where I would be happy to pay up front --- I've just ordered mirrors for a dance studio, 50% up front; custom cabinetry, 50% up front.
As a homeowner, I would be happy to pay a deposit on things like new windows, a new furnace or a/c unit, or on any custom order. It is a matter of judgement. (Home Depot's policy of requiring payment in full for goods plus installation in advance, as an example, sucks big time. Only a fool would go for that, and judging by home depot's cash flow, there are a lot of fools around.)
I'm a well established remodelling contractor. I generally require a ten percent deposit on jobs over ten thousand dollars; under that, I don't bother with deposits.
On the larger jobs, the deposit does little to protect me. I have to pay framers, electricians, plumbers, HVAC, boarders, tapers, finishing carpenters, painters and so on ... plus the materials whether or not you pay me. Their contract is not with you, it is with me.
So ... I do trust homeowners. If I feel at all uncertain of them I politely decline the job.
In your case, I would make no further investment -- emotional or financial -- in the situation. Buy a snowblower, hire a high school kid, whatever. What's gone is gone. Focus on what's ahead.
Ken
A prostitute?
Actually, a lot of snow removal contractors do that here. Ever since I moved here a couple of years ago I have only seen it done this way. They quote you one amount no matter how much it snows. And, if it hardly snows at all, you still have paid the same amount.
My driveway is pretty long and narrow. Last year I hired someone with a plow and I had to pay one amount for the whole year, except that it became clear right off the bat that his plow was too wide to fit down my driveway. He would only go halfway and a couple of times he actually plowed my driveway while my vehicle was in it, so now I had a pile of snow behind my car and of course lots of snow between the front of my car and my garage. It was a disaster. I've been looking and looking for someone with a smaller plow but no one who plows around here seems to have one. So I decided to go with a guy who shovels instead of plows. I guess I can't really call him a contractor. He shovels in the winter and does landscaping in the summer--mowing lawns, trimming shrubs, does spring and fall yard cleanups, stuff like that. He also said he does something with concrete in the summer. . .
Anyhoo, I appreciate everyone's input. . .
Lesley
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