American Standard toilets: "Champion 4" vs. "Champion"

[Percival P. Cassidy]

We have three "Champion" toilets that we bought a few years ago. They flush very well, but it was not long before the flush valves on two of them (the two that get used most) started leaking: the rubber ring became "flabby" and didn't seat well. I called AS, who sent a pack of new rubber rings. These worked fine at first but started leaking after a few months. I had kept the old rings, which seemed to have become "firmer" again after drying out, and these worked fine for a few months. I went through this cycle for a quite a while, but recently the "flush tower" on one of them started sticking in the Up position, and the only way to get it to drop back down was to remove the tank lid and give the flush tower a firm push.

I filled out a customer support form on the AS Web site and they promptly shipped three "Champion 4" flush valves, which I installed yesterday. These work fine, of course, although I have read reports that even with these some people have had problems.

The new mechanism does not seem nearly as sophisticated: the original "flush tower" would drop and stop the water flow even if the handle was held down, but the new one stays open if the handle is held down (or sticks down).

Although AS sent new flush valves, they did not send new tank-to-bowl seals. One of the originals did not survive the removal and replacement very well and really needs to be replaced too.

BTW, I discovered that there is a class action suit against AS in relation to these toilets: even when AS has sent replacement parts, many people have had to pay plumbers to replace the parts, not to mention the wasted water and excessive water bills.

Perce

[Frank]

Wonder if this is a similar problem I have with my Toto GMax. It's a great toilet but I've had to replace the bigger flapper twice - after about 2 years. Old ones looked fine but leaked.

[Bill who putters]

I was told to rub the flappers with Vaseline once in awhile. My flappers are about 40 years old. My toilet problems were really water pump check valves getting clogged or just poor quality valves from the get go. Don't want to talk about it as it is really nice not hearing the pump come on.

[Frank]

That's a good idea. I'll try it next time. I had figured when they designed the flapper they just made it bigger not accounting for higher radius requiring a higher modulus/thicker material.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

I forgot to mention that after-market rings from Menards (with a 3-yr warranty, I think it was) remained usable longer than the genuine AS ones.

Perce

[DerbyDad03]

re: "I was told to rub the flappers with Vaseline once in awhile."

Um...errrr...oh, nevermind.

[Bill who putters]

Moron.

[The Daring Dufas]

garden

> Hide quoted text -

Touch my flapper and I'll slap you, you beast!

TDD

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Today (several days after I had bought a new seal) FedEx delivered three sets of tank-to-bowl seals, bolts and bolt seals.

Perce

[skhieber]

On Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:08:25 AM UTC-4, Percival P. Cassidy wrote :

The newer valve has few moving parts. No matter how long you hold the flush lever down and the valve open, only half the tank will exhaust--the valve height prevents water in bottom half of tank for exhausting. The old valve relied on a mechanical trigger mechanism to drop the valve to limit the out flow. The old version dropped so fast that only half the tank emptied--unle ss the trigger doesn't work correctly which happens sooner or later. With t he old version, the water drained at the base of tank so all of the height of ht water applied pressure to the outflow. The new version exits at half height so the pressure would be slightly less. to compensate for this, it i s slightly funnel sharped to increase pressure in to the bowl. Remarkably t he simpler valve seems to work as well at flushing as the old version but w ithout the complex mechanism.

Someone said he put weight on the valve to prevent leaking. Not necessary-- the water pressure is plenty to hold the valve down. But if the seal is n ot flat between the two halves of the flapper ball, or the o-ring on the nu t on top is not seated correctly, the flapper can leak. Loosen the nut so the flapper halves can be separated partly then holding them together with the seal flat (not warped), tighten the nut firmly. We the parts first to l ubricate them. Do not use vaseline as it tends to break down rubber parts o ver time.