All aluminum versus copper/aluminum coils for air conditioner?

replying to Smarty , mangino wrote:

My Carrier air conditioning units are almost 9 years old and the copper evaporator coils are totally rusted. I have an air conditioning guy that I totally trust and he told me something interesting. He said that Carrier knows that there are issues with the coils rusting out prematurely. Carrier use to have all aluminum coils and aluminum never rusts. Carrier and other manufacturers realized if they switched to copper coils their customers would have to replace their coils approximately every 6 to 8 years (10 years if you were lucky). So it all comes down to what's called "Planned Obsolescence" and you see it practiced with almost everything you buy these days. It just puts more money back in the pockets of the manufacturer and repair industry.
He also told me that Carrier and others are starting to bring back aluminum because of the backlash from customers. I am now getting aluminum coils installed.
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a good friend from the 1970s who taught HVAC around here highly recommends goodman. they use standard parts that are commonly availble from many sources.
unlike trane and others that use OEM parts with no alternate suppliers, so they decide when a model is obsolete. they just quit supplying parts.
my goodman is working fine its 8 or 10 years old and came with a great warranty
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replying to bob haller, BobsYourUncle wrote: Also Amana which is basically a fancy Goodman, much as Lexus is to Toyota; same manufacturer, just more bells and whistles (but without the extreme price delta that the autos have).
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On Saturday, April 18, 2015 at 10:44:04 PM UTC-4, mangino wrote:

Seems kind of odd that Carrier would switch to copper from aluminum on the theory of making some more money. If your evaporator goes at 8 years, how many customers are going to go with another Carrier or even an evaporator replacement? At that point, most people are going to get a new system and it likely wouldn't be Carrier. Also given the cost delta between copper and aluminum, I find it hard to believe it's even true that Carrier went back to copper coils, unless there is some other valid reason for it.
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On 4/19/2015 9:10 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Things have probably changes since I worked for a company that made coils. Back then, they were copper and full aluminum was just starting to be made by a couple of companies. The only reason they changed was cost.
We had been making copper coils for many years and it would have been costly to change over with all the equipment involved and we did not make large quantities of a given size like Carrier. We did specialties from 6" x 6" to 4' x 20' For tubing we used copper, brass, cupro-nickle
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replying to trader_4 , mangino wrote:

Yes there is another valid reason for the switch to aluminum (in addition to planned obsolence) and it's called Formicary Corrosion. You can get the FACTS by reading the industry research report containing scientific studies and analysis going into the details of aluminum versus copper. These are details you won't get from your air conditioning company.
Here's the link : http://www.conditionedairsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-811-20345-25.pdf
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On 4/19/2015 12:44 PM, mangino wrote:

While I found the link interesting, how do you expect us to continue a discussion when you mess up a lot of good arguments with FACTS?
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On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 4:21:47 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The facts here would seem to be that the document he just provided is exactly opposite to what he's claiming. He stated that Carrier allegedly switched to copper coils from aluminum so that they would fail faster. Yet the document says Carrier is using aluminum coils because they are corrosion resistant and superior. I don't see them saying they went back to copper..... So, I don't see what all the fuss is about.
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http://www.conditionedairsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-811-20345-25.pdf

I am sure that there are enough posters here to sustain *any* argument, with or without facts.
When I saw the word formicary (formica means ant in Italian) I decided to go look it up to see if it was related to ants (or Formica - which people tell me stands for "FORmerly MICArta). This is another site that describes the problem and claims it can occur within two months after manufacture.
http://www.microchannelfacts.com/formicary-corrosion
<<Formicary corrosion is a type of corrosion also referred to by HVAC contractors as "ant's nest" corrosion.>>
They say it can't be seen with the naked eye but I assume if any kind of corrosion gets bad enough, it will become visible to normal vision.
Learn something new every day!
--
Bobby G.



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replying to Robert Green , DCB wrote:

http://www.conditionedairsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/01-811-20345-25.pdf

Formicary Corrosion can never been seen, it is the very definition of the pin hole mesh; It is rare and is usually caused internally not externally with the introduction of a acidic contaminant in the system.
Copper is tried an true, lasts for decades, provides 2X the heat exchange. (it is the reason that ALL computer CPU cooling is COPPER)
Aluminum is cheaper and easier to bend; which is important because the MFG's have to come up with creative solutions to make up for the reduced heat transfer.
Additionally, copper is easier to repair and unless the Aluminum system does not have copper anywhere it is more likely to see corrosion where Aluminum touches copper then copper has of Formicary Corrosion
Cheers
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On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 23:44:01 +0000, DCB

You'd be surprized how many CPU heat sinks have absolutely NO copper in them. I've even got a pile of them tat a magnet will stick to - not very well, being stainless steel of all things (very poor thermal conductivity, but goot thermal mass - with heat pipes to stainless steel fins, plus folded fins that appear to be aluminum (definitely not copper) fused to the stainless plate.
These all came from P4 and Core Duo equipped Lenovo desktop units.
Most of the rest of my stask are extruded aliminum -I had a couple copper ones from ancient Dell PCs (Inspiron 2400??)

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On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 21:00:23 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I have a huge box of heat sinks from computers that date back to the 60s through P4 class machines and they are all aluminum. The only copper I have ever seen is in a WYSE "thin client" machine and it is a short 6 gauge copper wire that connects the aluminum CPU heat sink to a much larger aluminum heat sink next to it.
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<stuff snipped>

I've got a bunch of heat sinks/cooling fans for CPUs and some of them did have a highly polished copper insert that sat right on the chip (with thermal gunk - amazing how much of a difference that stuff makes!)
But by and large they were mostly huge junks of aluminum. There were also sinks that had a bracket that allowed use of a slower, quieter (and harder to plug with dirt) 80cm cooling fan suspended over the CPU. I bought a lot of spares and then switched almost exclusively to tablet PC's I got from Ebay. )-: Not sure what to do with all those spares and for that matter all the SCSI cards, 10Mb NICs, Archive tape controllers (a whopping 250Mb of backup tape - huge for its time), old modem cards, ISA controllers, EISA controllers, SCSI cables (I, II and III) and a host of other stuff from days gone by. Did I mention my wife says I am a hoarder?
(-:
--
Bobby G.






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On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 09:56:58 -0400, "Robert Green"

I just got rid of my last few PS/2 machines recently ;-) I still have a Convertible and a 5150.
My computer room was a fairly good sized bedroom and it is stuffed
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On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 09:56:58 -0400, "Robert Green"

My wife says I'm a hoarder and I threw most of THAT stuff out 5 years ago!!!!!
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On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 13:18:04 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I still have a stack of SCSI drives. I should plug them in and see what I was doing way back in the 20th century. A couple date from the day I retired in 1996 and have not spun since. These are the old technology drives and I bet they will still work.
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On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 13:44:11 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

If you can find a buss slot to plug the Scsi controller into, and drivers for the current OS, or a compatible SCSI controller for your computer.
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On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 14:54:21 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I am running a SCSI scanner on my W98 Fax/print server. Plug and play.
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replying to Robert Green , DCB wrote:

If you cut them open you will find that any decent heat sink for high speed processors all have copper heat tubes and copper exchangers. They can have aluminum fins but the heat exchange is copper, why? because copper has 2x the thermal exchange of aluminum.
Also I find it interesting that the Carrier article is about evaporator coils not condenser coils, yet its the condenser coils that are being changed to aluminum while almost all of the evaporator coils remain copper.
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On Sat, 25 Jul 2015 03:44:01 +0000, DCB

Only heat sinks with heat pipes genereally have copper cores (because they are a lot easier to braze and solder than aluminum)
I DO have a copper aftermarket heat sink I forgot about - and even IT has a stainless steel thermal mass plate into which the4 heat pipes are fitted. It's a "ZeroTherm" BTF95 (Butterfly) passive unit (no fan) and also has a copper "transfer pad".
These tend to be used by the same geeks that buy "oxygen free" copper speaker cables. The reviews tend to re-enforce my opinion - They dont cool worth squat. (at $60 MSRP it does not outperform the OEM intel aluminum heat sink)

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