Air handler

[gfretwell]

Furnaces belong in basements and those people use an A coil for A/C. Unfortunately designing duct work that works for both is always a compromise. Down here we don't generally have a furnace and heat is a second thought. I never turned the central heat on here in the last 10 years since my last A/C swap out. The duct work and A/H location should be optimized for efficiency in cooling. As I said before, attic installed A/H units is becoming a thing of the past. They really want them in a centrally located closet in the living space according to the energy code. A new system usually involves all new equipment and new ductwork. Since the ducts run through the attic and the drops are in the ceiling it is usually not that big a deal. The current material is superior to what was being used 20-30 years ago so it is worth doing and they should also "mastic" all the joints. Without doing all of this you are not going to get the best efficiency out of your new system. Electricity is only going to get more expensive. Pay now or pay much more later.

[Marilyn Manson]

What's the payback period? For many of us, we'd probably be paying now so *somebody else* doesn't pay much more later.

[gfretwell]

The pay back time on a high efficiency AC system is far less than electric cars and all of these solar boondoggles. I hear about them here all the time.

[trader_4]

Then many, maybe the majority of air handlers installed today, must be of improper design.

[trader_4]

Technically, like Ed said, I think most of the modern units no longer use an A coil, it's an N shape or whatever, to get higher efficiency.

It's interesting that FL has recognized that. I haven't seen new construction here in the last couple years, but up until then, large homes still had two systems, one in the attic. I agree with you. Just looking at the thing, in an uninsulated attic in the winter and summer, ducts running everywhere, you know it has to be very inefficient. Plus you have the problems of it possibly leaking water, where it can't be seen until it does damage, etc. A friend bought one of those, the system never could cool the upstairs properly. They sized the system so the AC down stairs was the larger one, which no matter what you think about where things should go, seems nuts to me.

[Ed Pawlowski]

A lot of basements are of poor design too. Some make it very difficult to get equipment in and out. The issue is making sweeping proclamations. I have first had experience changing out some equipment in the basement of houses with very difficult access for it.

[Ralph Mowery]

The first house I owned had a crawl space under it. The air handler was about 15 feet in from a small door that lead to the outside. I had to go under there to change the air filter and oil it. Sometimes the pilot light would go out and I had to go to the other side of the unite to light it. Made up my mind if I ever moved I would have a basement.

The house I now live in has a basement that has a double door I can walk out of. Easy to get to the air handler and plumbing pipes if I ever need to. Also there are staires going from the main floor to the basement.

[Marilyn Manson]

I'll try again...

What's the payback period?

"Far less than something else", especially if that "something else" isn't comparable (e.g. electric cars vs. HVAC systems) isn't an answer that can be used to make a decision on how much to spend on a new AC system.

[Clare Snyder]

Neither of which have to do with poor design" of the air handler itself. And yes, some piople "finish" their basements in such a way that removal of the "furnace" or whatever takes it's place is not easy - or like my sister's old wartime house with a crawlspace and floor furnace VERY difficult to install a "modern" HVAC unit with ducting. They had to dig out space for the furnace and install everything through a

3X3-ish hole in the floor with no stairs.

Even that wasn't "bad design" as it was just designed for what was "common" at the time - in 1946 - for a house that wasn't designed to last more than 30 or 40 years.

[gfretwell]

An air handler in the attic sweats like a pig and that is why they require a secondary drain pan. The new energy code will make them go away as soon as your state adopts it. Now the duct work in the attic is much better insulated using 1.5" duct board and thicker flex. We still have people insulating over that with batts. You are right about the sizing. We don't have a lot of multi story houses here but when they do the bigger system goes upstairs. The one down stairs won't run much at all when the upstairs system is running. The mini split thing is really starting to grab the market tho, particularly for replacements. It is really the only way to go in an old house that may have had the AC installed as an after thought in the first place. It is a whole lot easier to run a line set than to install efficient ducts and no air moves through the attic at all.

For Harry Homeowner there are guys on Ebay who will sell you a precharged unit starting at $500 bucks or so. I am always curious how that works out for them if they can't use the pre flared lineset. (AC flare is not the same as a regular flare kit you get at NAPA). We know an HVAC guy who installed mine for $100 cash and activated the warranty, something you don't get with a DIY install.

[gfretwell]

The house I grew up in had no exterior door from the basement, Everything had to come up the steps and through the house. It made things like washers and dryers a project. When I built my first house (that my ex still has) I was able to have them grade the yard so the basement door was at grade. in the back. No serious flooding issues and no problem rolling stuff in and out. They did have to dig the footers deeper than they wanted to and add 4 courses of block but I think they only did it in that corner.

[Ralph Mowery]

People keep talking about the pay back period. I almost never see the finance charges factored into it. Say even if you have cash to pay for something, that money may make more in the stock market . Like the last car I bought at 0% and financed it for 7 years. Will probably make around $ 4000 to $ 5000 on that money in the market, or I could loose that much. Then if what you have is working , no need to replace it with something else if a long pay back period.

Now if something is broken or you are buying something new, it will pay to look at the pay back period.

I was thinking about the solar cells for the house a few years back. Looking at the cost of them and thinking of how long they will last it did not make much sense to me to go solar. At my age the pay back period will end just about the time I may die. If not, the cells and inverters may need to be replaced just about the time the pay back period ends.

[Clare Snyder]

Walk-out basements with access directly from the garage (either on-grade or by stairs) with basement access from within the house are very common around here on sloped lots - higher at the street than at the back of the lot.. Personally I don't like garages at basement level but they are common on "raised bungalows" and some "side splits". My garage is 2 steps lower than the main floor with no direct access to the basement - but the basement stairs are just inside the house from the garage. Up 2 steps from the garage, through the door, immediate right tuen and down 12 steps to the basement. Going out to the garage is down 2 steps, with the "man door" immediaely to the right leading to the back yard and shed. The furnace room is at the far end of the basement off the laundry / wife's office which is behind the rec room / my office. The old furnace was easy to carry out with all doors at least 32 inches wide. Getting the water heater out is a bit more difficult, but only because of the weight. All finished except for 8X12 furnace room. Basement is about 25X24 +/- and is all "conditioned space" with no door between the basement and main floor,or main floor and upper story.

And yes, I removed the old furnace and replaced the water heater and water softener myself twice in the 39 years we have lived here.

[gfretwell]

How bad was your existing system? I saved $100 a month on my first upgrade going from a 1975 vintage package unit on the roof to a Trane TWE in the closet. The ductwork was at least half of that tho. It was old, poorly insulated and leaking. The whole unit cost $4000 installed (1998). The latest change was incrementally better (14 SEER to 18SEER) but my 1998 ductwork was still OK. I am not sure I noticed much difference at all in my bills but the house footprint under air also got 365 sq/ft bigger in that time frame. The point is if you are replacing your unit anyway why not pay a little more for an efficient system? Save the planet, It's for the children ;)

[Ralph Mowery]

Being older and looking at things we bought a house that everything we need is on the ground floor. There are 2 bedrooms and a bath upstaires and a basement down staires . You can walk out the door of the basement to the outside and be on level ground. Washer/dryer, main bed and bath are all on the ground floor. The shower in the main bath is a walk in. To get in the ground floor there is only one step up from the garage . Good thing we did as the wife fell and broke her hip a few months ago, but she does not have any major trouble getting to the car or moving around the house while recovering. It wold have been most difficult if all we had were upper level bed and baths.

The wife watches a lot of the home remodeling shows on TV. Most of them seem to have what is the 'open concept' and all the bedrooms and such are upstaires. May be ok for the young, but not as they get older.

[Ed Pawlowski]

My house is open concept too but all on one floor, as are many here. I'd not go back to a multi-story again as steps are not so easy any more.

[gfretwell]

I bet if you told them you didn't want the zero percent deal they would give you $1500-$2000 off, assuming you took the regular financing. Then pay that off right away. You can still invest the 2k you saved.

[gfretwell]

The only steps I have are a 4" step into the house at the front door and a 4" step up into the garage in back. If I was thinking, they would both be sloping surfaces like rear entry through the corner slider. Nobody needs it now but wheelchair access may be necessary some day. I just didn't think about it because everyone seems to have a front step. It would have just been a wheel barrow of dirt to slope the front step and I had concrete trucks here anyway.

[Clare Snyder]

That's called opportunity cost in the accounting business

[Clare Snyder]

The problem is even a small bungalow is selling for more than a 2 story the size of ours in this stupid market. A couple stair lifts will cost less than the real estate fees to change houses. I and the wife would LOVE a bungalow with a double garage, but a $100000+ mortgage on a pension is a non-starter.