Matching Air Handler with New Outside Heat Pump Units

[Louie]

The cheap church property guy here again. We are looking at replacing a 33 yr old two stage 10/15 ton GE air conditioning units. Our retired parish refrigeration mechanic says only replace the outside units with new heat pumps, and leave the existing industrial air handler in place, and do away with the old heat strips. We're in South Carolina. I've got a few quotes, but none of the contractors will do the job unless they install a new matched air handler. Any thoughts on how to get this done as cheap as possible and not have to replace everything?

[Bubba]

Put a sign up out front asking for Gods help and stack up cases of beer. God will be sure to send someone soon. Bubba

[Noon-Air]

You can get it done "cheap", and it will cost 10s of thousands more in increased energy costs and repairs over the life of the system....do you really want to be responsible for that??

OR... you can get it done right.... yeah its gonna be more on the front end, but in the long run you will not only save the church 10s of thousands, but you will also be helping the environment by seriously reducing the church's carbon footprint.

Its your choice....do you want to just look good??? or do you want to *DO* good??

[HVAC Guy]

Replacing more than you need is a definite, out-of-pocket and immediate cost.

The savings over many years are speculative, and are offset by the returns that can be had by investing the money vs spending it.

By not buying completely new stuff that technically you don't need, you are also helping the environment because it takes energy and the generation of pollution to make the new items. By installing only the components you really need, you are also being environmentally friendly by conserving or re-using what you already have.

Example:

Most say that solar electric panels are environmentally friendly.

However, no electric panel has ever generated as much energy during it's working lifetime than it took to make them in the first place.

The lifetime savings (in $$$ and fuel) of new HVAC equipment must be offset by the energy used and the pollution generated to manufacture, transport, and install the new equipment if you want to do a proper measure of environmental impact.

[Zyp]

If the air handler is as old as the outdoor unit, it too has served it's full life. Consider the condensate pans are likely shot. The tube sheet is probably on the verge of total corrosion. The square inches per ton [size of the coil] is likely not up to par with today's standard. The air volume is likely not up to todays standard. The TXV split is likely not up to today's standard.

Replace the complete matching components and reap the benefits of trouble free operation [albeit proper maintenance] for the next 20 - 30 years. The benefit is huge in energy savings alone not to mention the hair left on your head from not having down time when the congregation meets. [What's worse, a congregation pissed off because you spent a bunch of money and it doesn't work well - or spending a bunch of money and everyone is comfortable on Sunday?]

[Bubba]

Now your brain waves are starting to show "NotHvacGuy". I think what has happened to you is your tin-foil hat has been on too tight for too long. Maybe some water and lye mixed in would help you out. Bubba

[Noon-Air]

Bubba, He's just another wanna be troll. not worth the effort. He refuses to update and upgrade his *OWN* equipment because he is afraid that our statements will be validated. He doesn't want to believe that the average energy savings with a new, correctly sized and installed system is on the order of

60+ percent. We know otherwise and can provide proof of the savings...he doesn't want to hear this. He also doesn't want to hear that it ain't grampa's air conditioner anymore either. I just killfiled the POS and don't worry with him. He must have been a Marine.... has his mind made up and can't be confused by the facts.

[Bubba]

Well, a troll.......obviously but I dont know that Id sandwich him in as a Marine. I still like the visual of "nonHVACguy" the window licker. :-) Bubba

[Noon-Air]

Yeah, your right. I shouldn't dis Marines like that...most of them have some common sense.

[Simon Schnizzard]

Bullshit.

[Louie]

I hear you all, but the members are tight wads and all think that everything should last past their lifetime. The air handler is an industrial unit. The tag says it was built in 1934 - I kid you not. The retired refrigeration (not HVAC) engineer in the church, that originally installed it, says that it could go another 50 years. I believe him, since I took the covers off and hosed off the coils and flushed the pan and drains. The air handler is built like a tank - no rust on this galvanized hulk. I'm saying replace it all, but the refrigeration engineer has the credentials and respect of the senior members. He says replace only a cheap 5 ton unit, but then only replace the exterior units on the split 10/15 ton units that feed the big ass air handler. He also says we can replace the two coils for about $2,000 each, but continues to insist on leaving the old air handler in place. So I'm trapped in the middle: do what's right, or go along with the seniority plan. For now I'm just doing what they have always done - wait till it breaks and patch it up. Then pray it doesn't fail on the hottest or coldest day of the year. Who gets the blame when it fails? - yeah ya got that one right...

[Noon-Air]

So tell us.....how long has this refrigeration engineer been retired?? When was the last time he got any training or education on the HCFC refrigerant phase-out?? When was the last time he even kept up with the law, rule, and regulation changes?? Its *NOT* Grampa's air conditioner anymore. OTOH, why is a refrigeration engineer in the mix at all?? Thats kind of like going to the doctor... why are you going to a general practitioner when you need a specialist?? Maybe try something along these lines... see if you can find a comperable size church building with a new system and get a copy of their power bill and compare it to yours... there should be a significant difference. If your congregation are such tight wads, they may jump at the chance to save on the utility bills... at the same time, also present them with *all* of the repair bills for the old system, and explain to them how all the repairs and high power bills would make some serious inroads towards a new system.... then add in the costs for the proposed band-aids. If they want to be all about the money, then *SHOW* them the money (or where it all went)

[Bubba]

Louie, It sounds like you arent going to win over the elders but you sure can have fun with it and look like the rocket scientist. Do this: Start keeping very good repair records. From the time of the latest breakdown on. Get a bid now on what a complete replacement would cost. Then to top it off, figure out some kind of energy number of what that relic is costing you to operate vs having replaced it today. In about a year or two you are going to look like the brilliant genius when you bring up at a meeting the today cost versus 2 year from now cost. Wait till they see how much that same system cost 2 or 5 years from now. They might as well just take the Sunday offerings and burn them now. Bubba Bubba

[Bob Pietrangelo]

Hey Steve, can you zip your commercial and send it on, I'd like to see it. Also, don't be dissin' the Jarheads. I am meeting my son in Okinawa next week, first time seeing him in a couple of years.

Bob Pietrangelo [e-mail] (home) [e-mail] (work)

[Noon-Air]

No problem Bob, and shake his hand for me, and tell him a grateful retired Coastie says "Thanx" :-)