Let's say that I draw an imaginary line in the ground.
On one side, I want to kill everything.
On the other side, I want to leave the grass, etc, as
If I spray Roundup or similar product in the kill-zone,
how far should the application be from the dividing
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 08:47:59 GMT, "David Hare-Scott"
Glysophate has no effect in the soil, and breaks down almost
immediately there. It works systemically through the sprayed foliage
of the plants. Spray on a clear, calm day, and you won't even need a
I tend to stay away from round-up (I don't like their parent company) when
it comes to spray edging. It does translocate and your edges can/will be
larger than you wish. I use Finale (Glyphosate) for spray edging. Finale
has never 'creeped' on my spray lines and unlike round-up, it trully has
no soil activity.
If your looking to kill a lot of really tough, deep rooted perennials,
then round up may be your first choise. Otherwise you'll most likely will
need to re-apply if you use finale. Personally I've never had much issue
with growth return with finale. Below are some links on the subject.
Either chemical use use, you will need to have caution if there is any
wind. Use a piece of cardboard or wood to help you screen the spray when
If you have a killzone, just lay down some cardboard or many layers of
newspring on the weeds, cover the paper with rich black organic compost or
steer manure (which without soil mixed in will be too sterile for weeds),
& by the time the worms have finished eating the cardboard the weeds will
all be dead & you only need to turn the soil over to mix in the compost,
for a weed-free & toxin-free area of ideal topsoil. If you don't intend to
plant the area you could just lay down black plastic for a few weeks & let
the sun cook the weeds to death then toss the plastic, but for an area to
be planted, the paper-barrier method is ideal because after it kills
everything it just turns to plant nutrients for future plantings. And one
USUALLY discovers that the organic methods work far better than the
chemical methods, whether or not one agrees that toxifying the environment
is a bad thing. And products like roundup do much more lasting damage to
the environment than the vendors confess, & the surficants in these
products have done great harm to watersheds.
As well you shouldn't. But Avento/AgreEvo is doing all the same bad shit
as Monsanto, like developing pesticide-tolerant crops so that increasing
amounts of toxins can be dumped on farmlands, & lying their asses off
about how safe it is for all of us to be eating their chemical pollutants,
& "spinning" the safety of GMO crops denying the problem of outcrossing by
use of falsified research which never matches findings of independent
field studies. They have lied about the significance of outcropping, among
other lies, & have been one of the primary funders (along with Dow &
Monsanto) of the right-wing think-tank the Hudson Institute which develops
misleading propoganda as countermeasures against anyone with environmental
concerns (like when the Hudson Institute & John Stossel promulgated the
new myth "organic foods can kill you" & insisted that crops not treated
with Avento & Monsanto chemicals had more chemicals in them than crops
never treated with chemicals). Their eagerness to tell whoppers is so
without bounds that they really do go off the deep end & become laughing
stocks rather than furthering their agenda, though some of their
spokespersons, such as Avento's Dr. Devine, can demonize environmentalists
& then run really convincing doublespeak arguments about the safety of
just everything the chemical industry does, all the while feeling sorry
for anyone who so stupidly dares to think the independent research
findings just might be more credible than the in-house falsifications.
Sadly, in the chemical industry there aren't good guys & bad guys, but
only businessmen, & environmental concern is bad for sales.
Your belief in Dr. Spak's in-house research which "proves" he works for
the company with the better herbicide does not meet any test of
independent, controlled, doubleblind, uninvested science. The claims
you've decided to believe really amount to company propoganda, which after
legal suits between Monsanto & Agravo, Agravo has gotten increasingly
clever at gamesmanship in lieu of science.
Both products work the same way, & do harm in the same way. Being MORE
toxic for speedier kill doesn't necessarily add up to anything but an
identical effect in the final assessment, but with more concentrated toxic
residues for the more concentrated product. Monsanto's "answer" to Spak's
fatuous claims -- Monsanto replies that RoundUp has the least restrictions
on legal use because it's safer -- is ultimately an admission that their
own product is harmful, a confession made in order to assert that Agravo's
Finale is even worse.
Organic methods tend to have accumulative benefits for an increasingly
healthy garden, but chemical reliance breeds chemical reliance in a
worsening garden environment. That's the main fact of organic vs chemical
gardening practices, without even bringing in the issue of broader
environmental damage & injury to human health.
-paghat the ratgirl
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
Seeing as you have taken great time and effort in your post, I feel I
I have done the cardboard/blackplastic kill off and I reccommend it to
people often. The rub with the cardboard is to use -ThicK-, heavy duty
cardboard. I tell my clients not to spare it. Once the cardboard get's wet
it tends to fail quickly if not thick and the vegetation will recieve
water and keep up the fight and possibly win. I did not recommend this to
the poster due to the fact that they have made their decision. The product
is bought and paid for and they will use it no matter my thoughts on the
I can see you have an opinion about the subject ;-P .. just kiddin'
really. I personaly feel mostly the same about it also, but in business I
subscribe to the ipm approach. The client will use chemicals if that's
what they want and I would rather be the one applying them than to have
the client or other companies applying them. I do my best to be
conservative and responsible with the application and I try to choose the
lesser of two evils when it comes to chemicals. I do my best to change the
client's point of view and I have been able to over time with a few
Like I've said before, I pretty much fully agree with you on the subject
but at the end of the day I -NeeD- to make a living. I would love to run a
fully organic service but it's just not possible at this point in time in
my area. The market demand is just not there but it's begining to
change. My business is 80% organic and I always offer an organic option to
the client. The clients' want (generaly) instant results which organics
just don't do (*generaly).
Personaly I feel that I've done quite a bit of research on herbicides and
I'm not the type to swallow what is feed to me readly. As soon as the
orgainc herbicides catch up to the chemical ones I'll make the change
completely. At this moment organic herbicides are only contact killers and
not very efficive. I do what I can to encourage clients to change their
planting habits and their mind set of what a sustainable landscape design
is.... but in the end the clients will what they will.
Have a good one...
That's interesting, where do you live? We are very fortunate in Austin because
many of the arborist, landscape, and design businesses are organic and they
advertise and it can take a month for them to fit you in. I know Austin is aka
the granola of Texas, but organics work and Texas A&M finally did some research
into fertilizers and figured out the certified organic fertilizer out performed
all others...you have to convince people.
You may want to look into Finale. It's not a glyphosate, nor is it organic, but
it is AS systemic as glyphosate and it has not been proven to cause cancer as
glyphosate has. Glyphosate is also responsible for killing frogs and other
amphibians, some of which are almost extinct.
Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
I live in Bellingham, wa. Lots of hippies running 'round here for sure.
Like I stated before, 80% of the work I do is organic. The real issue with
selling organic service is organics = labor costs. I have clients that are
willing to pay labor costs to have their beds weeded... then I have
clients arn't. I have a much easier time selling organic lawn services.
Many clients have no clue that I'm doing "organic" service on the lawn. I
just hand them a bill for the fertilizer... they pay it. They never seem
to take notice to what type of fertilizer was applied.
That is was what I recommended to the original poster. I've used Finale
for the last 5 years. I use 15 to 20 gallons a year of finale, mostly for
driveways and other utillity areas. I also use horticultural vinegar, but
it only works in temperatures above 72. Imho temperatures 75 and above are
needed and the sprayed area needs to be in the full sun. I took me a while
to get my supplier (whatcom county farmers co-op) to carry it. At 17.50 a
gallon (my cost), most people are a bit reserved about purchasing it as a
service from me as the cost can be a bit more than they wish to/can spend.
Combined with the fact that re-application is most always needed. I tend
to recommend clients purchase it on their own and apply it on their own if
they wish to stay organic and can't afford my service. As you can tell...
I'm not a great business man..lol.
Actually, I think you are honest and to me that is far more important than the
alternative type businessman. To be perfectly honest, I am completely organic,
but last year I bought a concentrate of Finale to use on bemuda which I have
been digging to China for about 5 years in this house. I have a stand of it out
back that I cannot kill no matter what I do. I tried solarization, newspaper,
cardboard, 20% vinegar mixed with toxic levels of d-limonine in hot sun and none
of that worked. I am so conflicted about using it, but I can't do battle with
this weed any more. It's not like I haven't spent countless hours on my hands
and knees wearing out Mud Gloves and broke at least one fork.
Keep doing honest business. It's much better in the long run and the grand
scheme of life.
Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
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