Terminology "Historic" Detail

[tbasc]

Trying to describe building failure in recently build house in "colonial" style. I'm looking for and have not found a brief name for the bit of roof that is turned in at gable ends. Anyone have an idea?

TB

[Harvey Van Sickle]

On 04 Oct 2005, wrote

Do you mean a hip (as in a hipped gable)?

[Notan]

Are you talking about a "gambrel" roof?

Notan

[RicodJour]

Hipped-gable

Pretty wierd, huh? Instead of coming up with some wacky name, Indonesian Vernacular Goat Hut Roof, it's exactly what it should be!

R

[Bob Morrison]

There is a style not shown called a "Dutch Hip" in which there is a bit of exposed gable end wall above the "ridge" of the hip.

Sort of Like this:

[Bob Morrison]

Here's another picture and better description of the Dutch Hip

[RicodJour]

Upon reading the original post again, I'm wondering if he's talking about at the lower edge of the roof instead of the peak. He said "turned in" not "turned down". Hmmmm...

R

[RicodJour]

Like this:

I know that as a return. I describe it as a gable end return.

R

[Kris Krieger]

Bob Morrison wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Thanks, I've wondered what that was called. But I'm surprised it's called "Dutch", because it seems to show up on houses that that seem to have more of a Pacific or loosely Japanese-type influence. The ones I've seen usually have vents in the gable.

I know that the "gambrel" is associated with Dutch influence (in the NorthEast), but I never saw the illustrated type on anything that seemed to be otherwise Dutch-influenced (when I was in the NorthEast). So I Googled it. This site might be of interest:

Q. - Is this kind of gable BTW as susceptible to wind damage as is a large "full" gable?

[Bob Morrison]

Kris:

I typically model the Dutch Hip as a full hip when doing the overall structural model (base shear, etc.) Then model the partial gable under the "components and cladding" parts of ASCE7-02 (IBC2003).

The Dutch hip can funnel some of the wind directly at the partial gable, whereas a full hip will let the wind pass over the roof.

In any case it all comes down to the connection details and the ability of the contractor to execute those details.

[Kris Krieger]

Thanks for the info, Bob!

- K.

Bob Morrison wrote in news: [e-mail]:

[RicodJour]

Probably has to do with the Dutch being influenced by their trade/holdings in Indonesia centuries ago.

The "hippish" part would act as bracing and probably help, but the low roof itself would be in danger unless it was tied in pretty well.

R

[tbasc]

Thank you, every one. Great resources. Rico managed to decypher my intent. Gable End Return .

TB

[Kris Krieger]

"RicodJour" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I hadn't thought of that - sounds logical. Is it somthing, do you know, that's actually used in the Netherlands? I've never actually been there, so it'd be interesting to know.

It seems like something that'd be quite practical, tho', in a hot climate, esp. if the roofing material extended over the gables - that way, the hot air should rise and exit, without allowing a lot of rain to get in. But it seems like it'd be impractical in a cold climate.

I wonder whether the cooling-airflow function would be more efficient if there were vents on all four sides (assuming a square or nearly-square roof)?

In addition to tying things in and together well, would it help to cover the underside of the overhang? ((I've seen both vented and unvented eaves, tho' the vented are said to cut down on humidity and deter mold.))

Just curious.

- K.

[RicodJour]

I speak seven languages - including Newsgroup. ;)

The word in was the tip off.

R

[marcenmoni]

The photo referenced by Rico shows what is really called a broken pediment, especially true of the item photographed as the raked cornice and bottom cornice would have formed a 'proper' pediment (though not supported by columns, which is also common).

Pediments can be broken at top (no joining raked cornice) or bottom (interrupted base cornice). In a broken pediment, the bottom 'returns' would be known simply as cornices. There may be an actual Latin (if not Greek) term for these 'leftover' cornices, (like acroterion for the decorative elements placed on top of the raked cornices at the lower points and apex) but I don't have my arch. dictionary with me.

Technically, 'gable' refers to the structural infill of the triangle created under the sloped roofs. Pediment refers specifically to the cornice/decorative motif, with the tympaneum being the area encapsulated by the cornices. So depending on how technical you want to be, you may consider 'bottom cornice'.

FYI:

and

though the definitions are more precise in the former, though harder to visualize without drawings. The former is also UK so there be some variations with respect to US usage.

Marcello

[RicodJour]

TB asked for a brief name for the construction in question. Having to give a lesson in Latin while explaining the construction at the same time is a quick way to have people's eyes glaze over.

It's a matter of clarity. While your terminology is no doubt correct, it's also potentially misleading. A broken pediment to most people, including most architects, indicates one broken at the top. A bottom cornice? A cornice is a capping element - if there are no pilasters under that gable end return...errr...cornice, it's not clear what it's capping. Since it's undoubtably wood frame construction located in the US, it makes the most sense to use the term used by carpenters in the US.

R

[Ken S. Tucker]

>

Just a quick chime, thanks for the roof ref! Now wifey can pick what she wants. Ken

[Harvey Van Sickle]

On 05 Oct 2005, Marcello wrote

-snip-

I'd have said it wasn't just the "technical" definition -- it's what a gable *is*, in standard professional terminology.

(At least, I'm not familiar with any professional use of "gable" to refer to anything other than the infilled triangle.)

[tbasc]

I'll use Gable End Return, because folks will - I hope - understand it. In addition, the forms, as copies of copies of copies, have so little resemblence to classical precedent that they are almost new forms.

Marcello, I'm keeping the links. Thank you.

TB