You mean for doing things twice?
Don't ask me. Thanks for all that, BTW. It's clear to me that what I think
of as Balkan, and a lot of eastern European music is largely Romani.
standard in Islamic architecture. The Selcuks that followed the Buyids, and in
some cases finished their monumental buildings, both copied their style in
almost everything but added soem of their own elements, particularly having
compass point entrances which replicated, to an extent, their early
Mongol/Turkic military encampments and organization.
In some things like music, it is hard to say what was the genesus for
anything in particular. The ney of Iran is the kaval of the Balkans and
is made from the same reed cane, which I may have pointed out before
(arundo donax)in some discussion of pernicious imports for landscaping.
The scales of Byzantine music are essentailly Syriac and Judaic
tradition. The intervals of Indian music scales are as varied as
Byzantine (and South Slavic) and several musicologists have found that
there is a complete relication of some Indian with some Byzantine. Is
this accidental or not? Roma have completely taken over for traditional
musicians in some countrires, i.e. there used to be non Roma musicians
doing music in Hungary, for example, that almost only Roma do today.
Who invented what is not so important sometimes as carrying on the
tradition or heritage. The Roma were kept as slaves longer than any
other people in Europe and were freed last in Romania where they did
almost all of the cooking, so it is unclear how much was invented by
whom, almost all of the music and a great deal of the fine metalwork
which they also still do in the Balkans (music and jewelry making and
fine metalwork, tookmaking and metal repair). These all can be nomadic
Take a look at Mamluk metalwork and Byzantine metalwork of Egypt. It is
also difficult to discern the difference, also, sometimes of Celtic and
Roma metal techniques. Why? Hard to know.
The term cincar (tsintsar), an ononomopoetic term, refers to the
metalworking ability of Roma.among Latinic speaking people. What we
mistakenly think of as the Russian samovar is actually Roma metalwork.
Lemme see if there is anything worth perusing about Tula online. If one
gets an antique samovar, one often sees the marks from the dates of its
retinning on the inside and the city name impression and date. Tula is
common as a repair place as well as a place of origin for much fine
metalwork and repair.
Or India. Or spending time in/passing through both
LOL. Apparently, Jan once turned up at an IRU (Internatinal Romani Union)
conference in Strasbourg. Pulled out a Colt 45 (no kidding) started
waiving it around, told the assembled delegates what he thought of them.
Very possible. Depends how long ago the poster appeared. There will be
people these days who can produce a more or less standardised Romanes
Much work done by Ian Hancock, a Rom, and linguist at University of Texas
Literacy is another conundrum. Roma will probably still claim illiteracy
as a form of defence, eg "I can't read (the parking tickets) - I thought
they were advertising fliers".
They are also good at dealing with researchers of all kinds. At one time
my wife generated some interest because she is uncannily good at palm
reading & tarot, but they soon backed off when they discovered that she
also has a post-graduate degree in Material Anthropology.
The Professor from Cairo, on NatGeo/Discovery Channel, finding black
opals in undisturbed Egyptian burial sites. How did that happen :-)
Name, link to the Phoenician port? Certainly India had Phonecian ports.
In a couple ocuntries i am running into Egiptani who do speak a
different language than Romani and claim to be a different people. Do
you know anything about them? The Egiptani claim the Romani are
Rajasthani originally, while originally they are Egyptians. Are
credence to this? They do look somehow as Egyptians. They have an
association in Macedonia and their numbers there, not so large are
unfortunately made larger from some of the Kosovo Egiptani joining them
for safety. Ppeople outside of them claim that they have a false
history since the word Gypsy, an English word, derives from the word
Egyptian from a false impression by someone in the middle Ages that they
came from Egypt. But perhaps one group that was Egiptani, i.e. Egyptian
nomads, ent to Europe and so every other nomadic group was stuck with a
name incorrectly derived for them. Evidently, genome studies have linked
the Romani to Rajasthan.
The reference to Zoraster comes from Manfri Wood (collateral kin). Fairly
cryptic stuff - as you might expect.
Another cultural defence possibly? Puzzles like this were useful to the
Roma. If the host society got it wrong/couldn't work it out then it helps
to protect the minority. Roma would often say "no - we are not [that lot]
we are [another lot]".
Aha - A clue there. The biggest Roma group in Australia is from
Macedonia. The Rom symbol of the 16-spoked wheel could be derived from
the 16 pointed star of Macedonia, derived "it is said" from Alexander.
Or "little" Egypt - last point of embarkation somewhere in Greece I
"Where are you from" is an imprecise question. You mean - last week? Last
year? Last millenium?
Yes. The Indian subcontinent was the place to be for a long period of
time. High civilisation when the Europeans were still bashing each other
with clubs. And there are many Roma in Rajasthan who didn't go west. But
do they come from there?
Most societies have a tradition about where they "came from". "God made
us out of mud". Scientists continue to wrestle over proto-humans and
their origins. The Roma simply couldn't resist trumping this sort of
thing - "We came from the stars ... ".
That's the problem when people refuse to comprimise. Certainly there are
things which should not be open to comprimise, tho' they'd make for a very
long thesis, so I'm assiduously avoiding any sort of partial listing. A
great many things, however, and perhpas even most things, should be subject
to comprimises, because the sort of "winners-versus-losers" situation you
mention merely deepens dissatisfaction overall, causing mroe problems than
Well, extermination is IMO the worst possible situation, but it's
unfortunately what often happnes (usually?) when a majority deems a
minority to be nothing more than a pain in the butt.
Re: thesis:antithesis, yes, but the only way to avoid such pairings (or
to be perhpas more exact, triplicities, of thesis, antithesis, and
synthesis/neothesis) is to eliminate complexity. Monothesis,
Stability versis mobility, security versus freedom, and so on - most
people see them as disconnected oppositions, but that's not the fact.
We're all mixtures of things that seem, on the superficial first glance,
to be dichotomous, and one thing cannot be eliminited without excising
part of what it is that makes us human.
Kind of too tired right now to go into that much more in detail, but I
think that's the gist of it.
In a way, nomads are like the birds - if you make a place for them, they
can enrich your life. OK, that sounds awfully warmfuzzy-touchyfeelie,
but really, life is enriched when we open ourselves to different
experiences. ANd it's often the apparent dichotomies that enrich a
True. Also, add in a *perceived* scarcity of resources. Many battles
(both literal and figurative) are fought because two or more groups
*believe* that there isn't enough to go around.
I'm reminded of several times (in various places I've lived0 where some
sort of "mega-storm" was predicted, and accompanying shortages of items
such as toilet paper, meat, bottled water, etc., were also predicted -
it became a self-fulfilling prophecy, because some people would rush out
immediately and buy the store out, leaving nothing for others. IOW, the
shortage was created by the poeple who panicked first.
THat's always a problem, perceptions.
I'd add that this is true, but usually in a particular *place*, which gets
back to the traveler-settler issue. I sure a bunch of people have died over
the millennia of our 'nomadic' history because one group wanted to reserve
an area and its resources for their exclusive use, and were prepared to kill
for it. That's how countries are made.
True. And it's difficult, giving up that posessiveness. I'm personally a
very territorial person, although my territory is pretty small (a wee bit
over 10,000 sq ft) which increases my defensiveness. So I know it's very
difficult to say, OK, I'll give up this or that amount of my property so
these other folks can have a place to sleep.
It's a very natural thing, territoriality, and I'd guess much more common
than is the desire to not be tied to a place.
OTOH, most conflicts seem to arise because nobody wants to comprimise - one
sice doesn';t want to give an inch, and the otehr side refuses to take a
foot because they want to take a furlong...
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