I bought a Tundra on July 16 last year, Sticker was around 33k+about 1.4k
for ttl. I drove out for 28k less trade in.
I imagine I could get a better deal today on the same vehicle but probably
not on a car.
If Festool transfers ownership of the product directly to the end
customer, then the retailer becomes an agent and is not allowed to set
price since they never assumed ownership.
There are several legitimate ways to accomplish this, including post
sale rebates to the retailer.
My neighborhood hardware store is a Festool retailer.
They maintain a display, but no stock.
All orders are shipped over night from a Festool warehouse in Las
OTOH, a manufacturer who attempts to dictate terms and conditions as
well as end market price of a product owned by some one else, in this
case a retailer, is skating on very thin ice.
Not uncommon for offshore suppliers to try to dictate end market
pricing, but it is cumbersome and not very cost effective in the US
As a result, usually gets abandoned after a few years.
As far as I can tell, this is the best answer. My (U.S.) company is not allowed
to tell resellers what to charge for our products. Once we sell product, it is
no longer ours, and the new owner can sell it for whatever they want. Any
attempt to tell the new owner what to sell the product for is considered to be
anti-competitive. The argument that Festool sells dealer expertise in the
price, and uses that as a reason for price fixing the basic tool price is also
anticompetitive, since not all buyers will want that service. You can certainly
include service in the price of the tool, but you can't use that as an excuse
for price fixing. The only way that I can figure out that what Festool is doing
is legal is if, as this poster suggests, Festool somehow is maintaining
ownership of the tool until it is delivered to the ultimate customer, perhaps
with sales incentives or rebates involved. That said, if that is not true, then
small dealers without a legal department often cannot prove/resist illegal
pressure from suppliers, and in many cases it may not be in their best interest
to do so - I'd imagine that dealers do fairly well with Festool sales. If it
were in anyone's best interest to pursue the issue, it would be a large seller
like Amazon, but their Prime memberships already provide a competitive free
shipping, tax-free price, so they may not care either.
Price fixing regulations are designed to protect consumers. Consumers are the
ones being harmed by price fixing, and consumers do not have visibility to the
negotiations being held between Festool and their dealers, so it is very
difficult for a consumer to assert anti-competitive practices. That's why
government regulators get involved. Clearly regulators in the U.K and Australia
think that Festool is misbehaving, so I would not be surprised to see action in
the U.S. at some point. In the long run, it could end up either jacking up
Festool prices or reducing the quality, but when Dominos are already selling
well for $875 because they are the only tool on the market that does what they
do well (I'm not counting biscuit joiners as real competition), there is clearly
a business opportunity for other tool companies if they can figure out how to
provide a competitive tool that doesn't infringe Festool's patents. If another
tool manufacturer sold a tool that performed as well as a Domino at half the
cost, with fair quality but perhaps not with the same service or expected life,
I'd buy the less expensive tool.
Good explanation here
Rule of reason.
Looks like you can dictate the price it it is higher than the competition.
The rule of reason is a legal doctrine used to interpret the Sherman
Antitrust Act, one of the cornerstones of United States antitrust law.
While some actions like price-fixing are considered illegal per se,
other actions, such as possession of a monopoly, must be analyzed under
the rule of reason and are only considered illegal when their effect is
to unreasonably restrain trade. William Howard Taft, then Chief Judge of
the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, first developed the doctrine in a
ruling on Addyston Pipe and Steel Co. v. United States, which was
affirmed in 1899 by the Supreme Court. The doctrine also played a major
role in the 1911 Supreme Court case Standard Oil Company of New Jersey
v. United States.
Things to consider, first is that most of the dealers have a pretty
extensive selection/inventory of the product. That in itself,
especially with Festool, is a sizable investment "if" the dealer is
actually buying the inventory.
FWIW SawStop is the same way and I know for a fact that the industrial
model of the SawStop is not stocked for resale by the dealers. In fact
you can't buy the industrial model from any other dealer other than the
one that covers the area that the saw will be sold and delivered to.
There is a chance that both SawStop and Festool sell their products on a
consignment type basis. If this is true the fixed pricing is
And if I were a dealer I would not necessarily want my competition
selling for less than me.
As a consumer I would love to buy Festool at a better price but I can
appreciate the fact that I can buy my Festool products from whom I wish
and not have to worry about whether I am paying more than somewhere
else. I don't have to worry about shopping price.
Concerning your comment about an interest in buying a product that does
the same as the Domino at half the price with a "fair" build quality I
would say that if you are going to be an occasional user that might be a
consideration. But consider this also. The quality of the Domino
surpasses any tool in my shop. It performs a function that absolutely
needs to be precise and continue to be precise. I bought the Domino
assortment initially, emptied the 5mm and 6mm sizes many years ago and
have bought a replacement "case" of 6mm and I am running low on my third
replacement case of 5mm tenons. There are 1,800 5mm tenons in a case.
With that in mind and considering that there are typically two mortises
cut for each tenon my Domino has seen over 10,000 plunge cuts. The
machine still looks new and cuts like new. There is absolutely no slop
anywhere and the mortise locations are still precise. And I am still
using the original bits and none have been resharpened.
Now in this example I am not saying that another type tool at a lessor
quality would not be a good choice but when you need absolute precision
you are going to be better off in the long run going with the Festool
Domino. You really don't want a tool that is going to start cutting
With regard to fitness of use, you are absolutely right with regard to the
Domino. Festool hit a home run with it, both in terms of design and execution,
and they deserve to reap the benefits. It's a great tool - everyone who uses it
agrees, though not everyone can claim 10,000 cuts (that is seriously
impressive)! Maybe I'll get one some day, although I wouldn't use it to it's
potential. But if another tool came on the market that did -most- of what a
Domino does, and did it accurately, but maybe not as quickly, and would last
until my kids took it away because it was too sharp (say 1000 cuts), I'd be OK
Well, I had 2 plate joiners/ biscuit cutters, both PC brand. In about 17
years I cut about 2500 slots. I find that the Domino is so superior that I
use it more and more. It really adds strength to joints and better aids
alignment. I use it a heck of a lot more than I expected when I bought it.
It elegantly solves problems.
What the Domino does is cut a few sizes of mortise, very quickly,
easily, and efficiently, without any setup to speak of.
You can get the same _results_ with a shop made jig and a plunge router.
The tradeoff is in the time to make the jig and the setup time to use
it. If you're making custom cabinets for a living it's easy to justify
on the basis of time saved. If you're a hobbyist, a few scraps and some
time are a lot cheaper.
I wonder however how many mortises you could cut in a single size with a
single bit. For certain my single 5mm bit has cut 8,000 + perfect
mortises. When I bought my Domino I knew I would use it but was clueless
that I would use it as much as I have. Even as a person that sells 80
percent of my work I do this for fun and certainly my volume does not come
near a living, and the time savings has paid for the tool countless times.
My work has increased in quality because I have the Domino. The Domino
lets you focus more on designing and building the desired piece vs. doing
the same and with complicated jigs.
A lot of the type of work that I do with the Domino was not even on the
radar when I bought the tool. What I normally would have used a plunge
router for with or with our jigs I do with the Domino.
Basically what I am saying here is that I value my free time and that the
Domino solves more problems than I ever could have imagined without the
needs to design and build jigs. I use it in more ways than I imagined when
considering the purchase.
I think that some of the jigs needed for a plunge router to do the same
cuts that I make with the Domino one might need to be more skilled to
design and build those jigs than need be to simply make the complicated
cuts with a a Domino.
If you're using the same bit that Festool uses you should get the same
number unless you manage to break the bit. Nothing magic about a router
Yep, like I said, if you're doing it commercially in volume and getting
paid for it, it justifies itself on time saved.
No question once you've got such a tool you find uses for it. But the
request was for something with less durability and more limited
capability and I was merely pointing out that jigs and a plunge router
provide that option.
Well there is nothing about a router bit, but the domino bit is
considerable different than a router bit. The whole plunge process
probably makes 20 back and forth passes while plunging. The side of the
bit past the first 3/16" or so from the tip does no cutting. I used to
do a lot of plunge cutting for Steve Knight and typical two wong carbide
blades hardly made it past 400 plunges 2" wide. Once I went to an end
mill bit I upped that to at least 1,000 cuts.
Agreed but once you actually cut a thousand or so mortises the price of
the Domino seems insignificant.
A side note here the Domino bits screw on to a male threaded shaft so
they are hollow on the screw end and they are just less than 10MM in
diameter so they might fit in a 10mm collet. And those bit's are
designed to cut in a sweeping arc, they may not cut as well or last as
long cutting in a straight line. The cutting end is rather unique.
I understand that all of this could be done with a plunge router but
some of us prefer to be spending more time actually building something
other than jigs. ;~) I think a jig is great if it saves you time.
But seriously have you got a jig that will allow your plunge router to
cut these? Keep in mind the bottoms of these mortises are 27mm from the
very end of these pieces of wood, not the surface that the mortise
begins. And the 5mm bit will not cut a 27mm deep mortise. The bit has
a shoulder that prevents this deep of a plunge cut. The mortises have
to be cut "after" the 1/2" deep and 1/2" wide section of material is
Then those mortises have to match and index properly with these.
Now, for another example. I am going to assume you have a biscuit
cutter. I'm also going to assume you have cut hundreds of slots for
Before you bought your biscuit jointer did you seriously consider
cutting that many biscuits slots before you bought it?
Did you consider or actually build a jig and use a plunge router to cut
that many slots before buying the biscuit cutter?
If your goal is to build 6~8 pieces of furniture for your home in a
decade your suggestion makes a lot of sense if you have the skill to
design the many jigs necessary to make the multiple types of mortises
that you may need to cut. In the last 4 years I have built 11 large
pieces of furniture for our home and never would have had the extra time
to build the other 25 or so pieces in the same period for my customers.
With the Domino my production has probably increased 500 percent. And
Sketchup plus Cutlist Plus have been significant times savers too.
No, but I would simply cut a standard tenon on the rail and the matching
mortise on the stile instead...same end result although I'd probably not
both with cutting the tenon down but leave it full width as it would
take more handwork otherwise.
I don't quite get the purpose of the overlapping front edge, anyways,
though??? One's got a but joint visible from the front either way so
there's no difference in precision in length or squareness or anything
to get the fit...
Those rails and stiles are for the back face frame of a cabinet. The lap
joints allow me to rabbit the pieces to form an indention for the back
panel to fit into. The floating tenons reinforce the joints.
Here is how that fits together
I'm pretty sure the Incra on the router table could handle those. Might
use up some scrap getting the adjustment right.
Plunge router isn't the right tool for biscuits. But no, I've got a
biscuit joiner but I hardly ever bother with it. Thinking about it, I
_could_ have used it for something today--thanks for reminding me that I
have the thing.
My goal is to relax and take my mind off of work by doing something
creative that I enjoy. Furniture is a side effect. Building a jig
accomplishes my objective just as effectively as making furniture.
I don't really care about "increasing my production" and since I've
already stipulated that the Domino is easy to justify in any kind of
production environment I don't really understand why you are so
defensive about it.
Really!!! Why not? Put a slot cutting blade on the router and the deed
is done lickety split. I use a slot cutting blade for cutting the panel
grove in arched door rails, surprisingly smooooooooth. For face in panel
slots change bits to straight. Ever easier than using for cutting
mortices for floating tenons.
But no, I've got a
Mine is under a pile of dust somewhere. ;~)
And that is perfectly fine. I am only advocating the Domino for those
wanting to speed up production and use more M&T jointery.
And I did not mean to sound defensive. When I bought mine I was not
nearly as busy, as I was pretty picky about what jobs I would take. Too
complicated and that became too much time involved. I would have been
right beside you on the comments about the doing this with another tool.
BUT after having the thing I can do the complicated joints quickly and
accurately so naturally I turn less work down and my production is
faster. Different strokes.... There are a few here that have
eventually bought a Domino and I don't think they have regretted it
whether it was justified or not. AND FWIW The Domino is crazy more
accurate than a biscuit joiner, except maybe the Llamelo which is about
the same price as the Domino. Any way....
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