Where to get oxalic acid in TO; LV cabinet scraper tools needed?

I need to brighten/ bleach my pine picnic table 2"x12"x8' boards that have the blackened water marks, etc. before I finish with Spar. Its great to see after its done so. I have liquid pool chlorine, which does a great job of whitening, but may have its own drawbacks (maybe not), but someone mentioned oxalic acid instead. The problem with pool chlorine is that the poly doesn't stick after, but I've only ever done it once or so to know whatever I did or didn't do didn't adequately rid/neutralize it. Again someone mentioned sanding. I could work chlorine in earlier to the overall re&re process this time. I probably did nothing or a light water rinse before, &/or maybe a light sand. Again any further comments about neutralizing for either the chlorine or oxalic acid, or any other product. Oh ya, and where do I get it in Toronto? Not LV, CT, HH, or HD!
Has another used or will recommend buying the accessories that you can buy from Lee Valley for sharpening a cabinet scraper? I think I can sharpen and flatten the scraper alright without extra tools. Just need a good flat file after it is normal and true then take a few final level swipes. But I have yet to get a piece of (round) metal stock of hardness greater than the scraper for putting the crucial finish on it, and you just can't find something anywhere around the whole house can you. There are two (2) items I think might do the job, a piston wrist pin or a valve lifer, form an automobile, but don't know if either is a good fit. To get the hook I get the feeling (experimenting with a kitchen knife sharpening tool) that a load of exertion is required, and then there is the skill level too. I'm no craftsman but for getting rid of bondo on a door jamb there is no other tool, and the list goes on. But I wish I could get mine working right; barely useable as a paper weight when I am done with it currently. So here are the LV products. Are they good investments? About $37 for a sharpener! Or should I get to the auto rebuilders with a fiver?
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p2633&cat=1,310,41070 Veritas® Variable Burnisher 05K37.01 Not the round one (to make a hook cuz I've made better with a blow torch and stair railing)
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p2631&cat=1,43072,43089 Veritas® Jointer/Edger 05M07.01 I am pretty sure I don't need this (for flattening/truing)
BTW Is the simple act of posting here in NGs lately causing my junk mail quantity to increase? You can e-mail me an answer if you wish!?
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bent wrote: ...

Many of the deck cleaners that HD had last time I was painting were oxalic-acid based. Can't imagine they don't have the crystals, either, but I don't know Toronto. If not, any full line paint supplier certainly should...
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Any notes on neutralizing this stuff after so the Spar poly will stickum goodly?

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bent wrote:

...
Water, water, water...
Never had any problem, but normally am painting. Don't see why should be any different. Prepare surface as suggested by finish manufacturer.
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bent wrote:

b:
Use a sodium bicarbonate slurry. If you want to be exact, get some ph strips (try your local nursery) and test on the runoff from a section to determine what concentration it takes to get your residual solution either near neutral or to the ph of your tap water. Baker's supply stores have bicarbonate in economical larger quantities.
Regards,
Edward Hennessey

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So you are telling me that you are aware that this problem specifically exists, and this is a precise proven remedy? I have had the problem and if this is serious (as opposed to a suggestion) I will probably take this advice. I must be sure this is not in the early stages of an educated guess before I can and will rely on it. Q1> This (specifically) is serious advice?
Is this for either of the chlorine &/or the oxalic acid solution? because I'm inclined to go directly to the chlorine solution, because I know it is effective colour- (brightening) wise. However I don't know what the oxalic acid method is like, and the latter adhesion? I don't know if the Cl not sticking is a pH thing requiring your solution, but I can see why the oxalic acid is a pH thing (acid<>pH)!? Q2> Does this solution advice pertain to my Chlorine "brightening" previous non-adhesion problem?
I already have test strips for pool water. They read pH with a dipped strip compared to five swatch colours on the back of the bottle: 6.2 6.8 7.2 7.8 and 8.4, but with colours it is easy to see if the pH is on either side of the scale. Q3> So is this the type of strip that's gonna work?
I think I have carbonate something also from the pool chemical supplies. Hey, is this a joke... ok I have....there's bottles labeled literally "pH Up" which contains "sodium carbonate", "pH Down" which contains "acid sulphate of soda". I had a post about a week ago in alt.home.repair about pool chemicals & pH. Q4> Is a sodium carbonate slurry the right stuff?
Sorry I didn't mean to get carried away. TIA. I am grateful to have learned this. This pool stores web page has "pH Down", "pH Up", and "Insta Test", the same type of stuff I already have. Found at interpools.com, using the search text string "pH Up":
http://www.interpools.com/webstore.taf?string=pH%20Up&_UserReference ÀA8DE8446B41EE65E19B0ED992348719C13

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bent wrote:

B:
I haven't seen your prior post. Short answer, your best advice is always from the manufacturer of the paint you intend to finish with.
What I am saying is if you want to make your substrate as neutral as it can be given the nature of its composition, the bicarbonate will balance the oxalic acid and, quite likely, so will your base (carbonate) pool chemicals. And, yes, your pool test strips will work here.
One chemical reason chlorine and fluorine are used in potable water is because halogens combine destructively with many other contaminating elements, including those in bacteria. If you painted over a deck with chlorine still wetted in the substrate, that would not be good. Neither would painting anything wet to begin with. Not that you would do either of those two things. However, since the halogens have a short life in the atmosphere because of their reactivity. Sun and oxygenation should degrade them quite rapidly. If you wash any wood with energetic chemicals, you should rinse heavily and let it get about 3 days of a good sun drying before thinking of painting and then you should be good to go.
Frankly, I've not used the oxalic approach since I've never had a situation that couldn't be addressed by a good wash with clean water and detergent, rinsing and drying. But if you decide to use the oxalic approach and are worried about residuals after rinsing, the addition of a slurry of neutralizing bases and a good rinse will address that.
Regards,
Edward Hennessey
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Edward Hennessey wrote: ...

I've used it extensively...

...and can avow it's totally unnecessary and simply leaves one w/ a case of now making sure aren't the other way imo...
Use manufacturer's recommendations as noted and all will be well.
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On 7/6/2008 1:05 PM bent spake thus:

I've used the stem of an old automobile valve with good results; it's hardened, probably as hard or harder than the scraper. They make special tools ("scraper burnishers") for this, but they're expen$ive.
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On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 18:55:49 -0700, David Nebenzahl
If you do this, fit a handle. It's far to easy to slip otherwise - one way you ding the sscraper, the other way it's your knuckles.

Mine was cheap. So cheap that it's easier than putting handles on valves.
The Veritas adjustable angle one is really pretty good.
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Try here for an inexpensive burnisher: http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid &2&ProductID2576
I use this for the whole job: http://woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid741&ProductID 1025
As for oxalic acid, I just had my local hardware store order a case of 24 1 lb containers. Any good hardware or paint store should be able to do the same thing. I'd urge not using a chlorine bleach. The results with oxalic acid will be far better. Water is all that is needed after bleaching with oxalic acid. No neutralization with a base is needed.
bent wrote:

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Sure, come on, you'll love it, everyone needs a car, only $25, 000.00.... and then theres the gas, maintenance, this and that, only another $88, 000.99...
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I have to point out (now of course) I was thinking of a free or $5 wrist pin from an engine rebuilders or something. I'd have to call and drive out to pick it up from wherever.
Actually with a round stock metal tool, (with the looks of a knife sharpener), I think theres little difference to a piston's wrist pin. It requires some skill level, which I am asking if it is taken out of the picture with the other kind (at LV or your all in one tool)? If I were to go into $20 I may put this tool into the category of the tool that LV has, the one like your's. Same level of commitment. But is it only half the tool of the adjustable one from LV~!? I am curious what people think about the need of one though, compared with having something that is "by hand" (like the first of your links, or a (free or $5 wrist pin). Or for that matter if a wrist pin is worth sourcing used comopared to the round tool; if there gonna be much of a difference between those two?
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Again any further comments about neutralizing for

If paint/hardware stores don't work out..... a commercial Janitor supply house might......I also years ago (1980's) in a pinch got some from a pharmacy, I'd think not the cheapest source but it worked well for me on a large mahogany water marked/stained window ledge and for the project the cost was incidental...customer was happy. I don't recall any significant problem with neutralizing, if I recall I just used a careful water rinse, maybe several. If you still can't find it there is also a product called ZUD, basically a scouring powder with Oxalic acid, it works great on stained porcelain, but would require more effort to rinse unless you can just hose it off.

I use an old smooth "steel"....normally used for knives...... In a pinch a good screw driver shaft will get you by and I've oft heard a old automotive valve stem works fine.....any very hard smooth metal shaft will get the job done.
Rod
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Rod & Betty Jo wrote:

Another possibility is "Barkeeper's Friend", similar to ZUD. Their web site (http://barkeepersfriend.com ) lists retail locations, including several in Toronto.

The shank of a drill bit will generally do it. The main advantage of the purpose-made tools is that you can get a good grip on them. Being a klutzone I gouge myself regularly on a corner of the scraper if I don't use something with a bit of a handle on it.
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Afa preparing the scrapers edge: after the file method (and a little draw filing) I would use a fine stone (like the 3/8"x3/8"x1-1/4" that comes with rotary tool acc. kits, etc.), or a piece of sandpaper on a >1/4" glass, etc.:). Just to illustrate the extent of the most difficult part of the job. I think anyone can do this step adequately, and there is no need for any tool. Unless anyone states otherwise.
I cannot even remember when a hook is necc, or more beneficial, and the rough to fine edges' properties/characteristics, but I know this requires a lot of force energy and maybe a little experience. But hoping to create a hook with anything but the best of equipment design and materials is a daunting task if you ask me! You might as well ask me to try to drill a hole in a brick with a stick. If I were to use a drill bit the first thing I would need is a pair of thick gloves ( supposed to be a knife sharp edge (diff <) all the way up). I am not sure if I have tried a drill bit. The $37 tool must have magical properties! I am sure I tried a screwdriver, as I am sure it left only gouges in the shaft. Mind you, enough shaft exists that I may be able get the job done, but not well. There is a reason things are the way they are. If nothing else I have read Machinery Handbook, so I understand a little bit of the metallurgical physics. Without the hardness on your side from the outset, for me its a losing battle. I have tried the best of the bad methods (materials) in a mechanics vice on several occasions, sweating and freaking out, for time till completion and my coat had the only hook around!
Forget about it. The material of screwdriver blade shafts just isn't hard enough. It can be hardened (then tempered) but the steel must start out its life in a generally strengthish state and that is exponentially expensive to the end user. There is literally nothing around anywhere the the exception of a few surfaces in our automobiles. Even these are often inserts and the entire design changed to reflect that. The fact that the business end of the tool is a tiny piece is no coincidence. HSS (high speed steel: well documented properties) drill bits are not that hard, nor are the gold-coloured bits (with the low percentage of the element cobalt I think). Even -Carbides, or the binding element allows the name, e.g. Ti, within a name, to be used. A little Carbon, a large dose of price. The percentages and properties are regulated. Regardless of where its bought its all from off the rack stock. Things like router bit inserts are different. The tips (largest total volume about the size of a chicklet, ~$75) are welded onto tool steels of HSS-like harness. Titanium is dull gray in colour, not even close to gold. The cost and hardness is directly proportional as is the quantity available, these are not hardness- competing animals. A $100 small drill bit set is harder than a gold-colour set, which is harder than a HSS set, which is harder than most things around the home anywhere. I am out of my total depth here, I am aware of the rest, but none is as hard as I need. You are taking the square corner of a piece of high hardness (harder than all the above) even in steady state steel, about 1/16" thick and pushing it with your fingers to become something else. But this is not a simple, quick job. I can easily see slicing your arm wide open, or breaking a finger, bashed knuckles. You could bash the thing with a hammer and not get the edge you need. In fact I could see a tool coming with a hand crank to get the job done!

Rod wrote, In a pinch a good screw driver shaft will get you by and I've oft heard a old automotive valve stem works fine.....any very hard smooth metal shaft will get the job done.
& then --John wrote

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I am trying to figure out why gold bits are called titanium, but its not really important. If it was to me I wouldn't be asking. Theres a ga-billion ways, with all kinds of factors to consider. Some titanium nitride coated, say on a moly vanadium bar stock are gold. I was just trying to point out a basic point, which may not be any or all factual.
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