waterbase stain and red oak


I have a project where the finish schedule for the interior trim involves staining red oak to match some existing work finished with watco medium walnut and spar varnish. the new work includes some anderson windows and other various trim in red oak and sugar pine. I'd really like to avoid filling and sanding these in place, and the client has requested that all waterbase products be used from here out. I have had experience with waterborne acrylic poly products- I'm confident in my ability to handle the top coats. what I'm nervous about is the stain. I've heard horror stories about open pores of red oak and water base stains. I'd like to find a product designed for this application if possible. any words of wisdom from y'all would make my life easier....
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Heard those stories too. You've whipped up a few examples already, I'm sure. Are the stories true?
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Minwax's water based works well. Wipe on and wipe off, stain, seal (use a coat of top coat), sand with 330 and top coat.
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Rumpty

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Results with WB dyes on oak depend mostly on how dark of finish you are shooting for. the darker the dye stain, the more prominent the unfilled pores will be. I've tried wetting agents, spraying, and find that there's always a portion of unfilled pores that remain light. for critical work, I've had to go over the dye with either a glaze or a (gasp!) pigmented solvent based stain. The fun part is finding a combination that doesn't end up too dark or that changes the tone.
BTW, spraying dry coats, at least for me, results in the least amount of undyed pores, but only by a small margin. I've still had to either add a solvent based stain, glaze, or tone the top coat to hide those light pores.
I no longer use Minwhacks products so I've no comment on Rumpty's assertion that he's gotten good results using their stuff.
Dave
bridger wrote:

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assertion that he's gotten good results using their stuff.
Dave,
I'm a Hydrocote water based stain user in a commercial shop. I have used Minwax H20 stuff in the field, and IMHO it is acceptable.
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Rumpty

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I wasn't saying that you didn't get good results! I just can't comment on the particular Minwhacks products you said you used! :) Sorry I didn't make it clear that while I no longer used their pigment based stains, I've zero knowledge of the efficacy of their other products, so that's why I had "no comment".
Dave
Rumpty wrote:

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The first route I'd try would be a water-based dye, on scrap, of course. TransFast, or something similar.
Patriarch
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On Tue, 24 May 2005 09:21:49 -0500, Patriarch

thanks. I posted also on homestead and have gotten some good replies there. I'm tending to think that their thickened water based dye stains will just about fit the bill...
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Thickened with what and how does thickening get the dye into the pores better?
snipped-for-privacy@all.costs wrote:

thickened water based dye

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thickened with acrylic, presumably. the higher viscosity keeps surface tension from bridging the pore, I assume.
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wrote:

Two things, adhesion and cohesion. Higher viscosity equals higher cohesion - surface tension.
At any rate, following the best advice ever given on the rec, you're experimenting on scrap rather than your project, right?
Make sure you experiment on quarter _and_ face grain. What looks good on one, might suck on the other.
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wrote:

I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I have used General Finishes water based stains (see http://www.generalfinishes.com/finishes/water-base-finishes/waterbase%20finishes3.htm#EF%20Wood%20Stains ) on a sanded white oak floor, among other things, in my old house. I also did the white pine beadboard, on the walls, with the same stain. Blotchiness was an issue on the white pine, and I was told to pre-coat with their clear stain. With this system, you put the final stain on while the pre-coat is still wet. The General water based stuff worked better than ANY minwhacks stuff I have ever had the displeasure of using. Final color was deep and clear; not muddy at all.
Irronically, both the floors were finished with an oil-based wipe-on poly, also from General Finishes. This schedule was suggested by the guy at the local Rockler, and it worked beautifully. If, by chance, you have a local Rockler, stop by and ask if they can show some of the General products. Take a scrap of what you would like to finish too. At my local store, the guy pulled a couple of cans from the shelf, demonstrated on some handy scrap, and let me have a go. Much better than flying blind.
I'm sure other vendors sell the same stuff too.
I have also used the Homestead dyes, with good luck, but think the General stains are a better match for your project. The Transtint dyes might be handy for making a final minor color correction if you are trying to match an existing job done with another finishing system.
DLGlos
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I've never done WB on a large scale but have done lots of RO furniture pieces with WB stains. I've used the General Finishes dark colors which is very thick. What I've done to avoid the white spots problem is to grind the stain in witha stiff brush so it esentially acts like a glaze, getting down in the pores. I couldn't imagine doing this on a whole house scale though.
What about tinting a sprayed top coat and not staining at all?
BW
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But then you can fall victim to scratches-look-like-hell syndrome. Better by most accounts to get MOST of the color IN the wood, then add a bit more color to the top coats to blend in the light pores.
Dave
SonomaProducts.com wrote:

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wrote:

spraying is not an option on this project.
do you have a link for the general products?
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 22:03:22 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@all.costs wrote:

www.generalfinishes.com
BTW, check out my earlier post where I report much happiness with the General Finishes EF stains. If you have a Rockler nearby, you could probably take a scrap in the store and experiement. They were quite helpful in this regard at my local store.
DLGlos
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